How All Catholic Churches Should Look!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331855259' post='2401482']
Even when they're used to replace the propers?
[/quote]
Having a hard time responding to this. On one hand, I want to say no, because of the historical/traditional value and beauty of these parts of the mass (i.e., the Introit). On another hand, I can't help but wonder if it isn't an organic development that they have more or less fallen out of favor...after all, the meetings of the Early Church would have been a huge departure from our modern smells'n'bells high mass, and that doesn't make either less valid. I guess I would have to learn more about when and how the changes began to occur to make a firm statement.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331855704' post='2401489']
Having a hard time responding to this. On one hand, I want to say no, because of the historical/traditional value and beauty of these parts of the mass (i.e., the Introit). On another hand, I can't help but wonder if it isn't an organic development that they have more or less fallen out of favor...after all, the meetings of the Early Church would have been a huge departure from our modern smells'n'bells high mass, and that doesn't make either less valid. I guess I would have to learn more about when and how the changes began to occur to make a firm statement.
[/quote]

Are you familiar with Laszlo Dobszay's two books, "The Bugnini Liturgy and the Reform of the Reform", and "Restoration and Organic Development of the Roman Rite"? He devotes very large sections in both of those books to the status of the propers. I'd say that it is hard to overemphasize their importance in the Roman Liturgy. They are, more than any other element of the Mass, and I say that with zero exaggeration, what makes the Roman rite characteristically Roman.
That is why perhaps the most important criticism of the Novus Ordo was its wholesale renovation of the propers.

[Adrestia]

I feel lucky. My church chants in Latin and sings in Latin, Spanish & English. I love all of it.

Our cantor calls Panis Angelicus our church's theme song. We do it acapella and it is glorious.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1331855929' post='2401494']
I feel lucky. My church chants in Latin and sings in Latin, Spanish & English. I love all of it.

Our cantor calls Panis Angelicus our church's theme song. We do it acapella and it is glorious.
[/quote]
You are lucky. There are in all probability only three communities in my entire diocese that regularly chant in Latin. One is SSPX, and the other two are FSSP. What diocese, if you don't mind my asking?

[Slappo]

Sorry guys I can't think too coherently while sick right now. So rather than re-reading parts of the thread to get the entire understanding of what i was trying to say I'll just say this:

Active participation in the mass is not in reference to the things we do physically aside from reception of communion which is the climax of participation. Active participation does not refer to chanting the propers, singing hymns/chants, making the sign of peace with people, or saying the responses. In the Traditional Latin Mass there is such a distinction between the entire congregation saying the responses and only the altar boys saying the responses that the former is referred to as a dialogue mass. The laity are in no way morally obligated to respond vocally or sing at mass.

As for music all I was trying to convey is the Church documents that were presented do not define what sacred music is (look at tra le sollecitudini for that, which even provides strict prohibitions on some instruments). No document that was cited states that guitars, piano's, or otherwise are proper for mass. That's literally all I was trying to say.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331856076' post='2401499']
As for music all I was trying to convey is the Church documents that were presented do not define what sacred music is (look at tra le sollecitudini for that, which even provides strict prohibitions on some instruments). No document that was cited states that guitars, piano's, or otherwise are proper for mass. That's literally all I was trying to say.
[/quote]
While I'm sorry you're under the weather, nobody (least of all myself, who, as I've stated before, am studying organ at university) has argued that guitars or pianos are fit for the Liturgy.
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331855920' post='2401493']
Are you familiar with Laszlo Dobszay's two books, "The Bugnini Liturgy and the Reform of the Reform", and "Restoration and Organic Development of the Roman Rite"? He devotes very large sections in both of those books to the status of the propers. I'd say that it is hard to overemphasize their importance in the Roman Liturgy. They are, more than any other element of the Mass, and I say that with zero exaggeration, what makes the Roman rite characteristically Roman.
That is why perhaps the most important criticism of the Novus Ordo was its wholesale renovation of the propers.
[/quote]
I'd be interested to look more into that. I don't get a chance to do much reading, so maybe I'll try to find synopses of them.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331856275' post='2401504']

I'd be interested to look more into that. I don't get a chance to do much reading, so maybe I'll try to find synopses of them.
[/quote]
If I have time this evening I was hoping to type up some of the relevant passages. The only issue is that those sections are incredibly detailed and can be quite dense, so I may not be able to pick out the most representative parts.

[Slappo]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1331849758' post='2401426']
If you're not singing just to be obstinate, to voice your disagreement with the Church's instruction, that's your sin of pride. If you choose not to participate when able, you separate yourself unnecessarily from the rest of the congregation. Your arrogance in some of these matters is scandalous; I can see where that would manifest through action or inaction during Mass. Just something to think about.
[/quote]

Considering the Church hasn't instructed the faithful to sing at mass, there is no sin of pride there. I don't sing at mass because when I'm at a Traditional Latin Mass I'm usually busy following the liturgy in my missal, and I don't sing at a novus ordo because my parish does not use sacred music (haugen and haas are favorites there, so is sing a new church, sing a new song unto the lord, table of plenty, etc).

I don't separate myself from the rest of the congregation by not singing. Most of my congregation doesn't sing, and I won't sing songs that have hints of heresy in them as they are not edifying. Your assumption of my arrogance is quite a stretch and I think it inappropriate to do that. That's not very charitable. As for the responses, I say the responses when at a Novus Ordo. I don't say them at a Traditional Latin Mass because the altar boys are saying the responses on behalf of the congregation.

[Slappo]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1331856275' post='2401504']
While I'm sorry you're under the weather, nobody (least of all myself, who, as I've stated before, am studying organ at university) has argued that guitars or pianos are fit for the Liturgy.
[/quote]

and I never said anyone was. i wasn't actually arguing or debating anyone on the topic, just making the general statement I think... then again I don't remember what I posted .

[Vincent Vega]

Fair enough.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331856006' post='2401496']

You are lucky. There are in all probability only three communities in my entire diocese that regularly chant in Latin. One is SSPX, and the other two are FSSP. What diocese, if you don't mind my asking?
[/quote] Galveston-Houston. Our bishop is awesomesauce.

[Nihil Obstat]

He seems pretty coo[color=#000000]l[/color]. Sounds like he's not the type to mess around.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1331855514' post='2401485']
Well in the ideal Mass there is less room for hymns because the propers would be chanted, meaning the Introit, Offertory, etc., etc.. There would still be some room for hymns, but less than what we have now. Probably still some room at the procession, although depending on different factors it may make more sense to chant the Introit at this time. Normally there would be time at the recession, and in large enough parishes there'd probably be further room during the people's Communion, though that's not guaranteed.
[/quote]
At the Mass I attend (also the Mass at which I sing), we chant all of the propers and still manage to sing two hymns. Other Masses at our parish do not and yet, they are just as valid and wonderful. Why? Because it is a Mass.

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331856076' post='2401499']
The laity are in no way morally obligated to respond vocally or sing at mass.
[/quote]
It's less that I disagree with your interpretation of the documents from the Church, and more that I find unease with your arrogance concerning what is right. Those who sing music composed by Haugen are not less than you as Catholics or as humans, nor are they necessarily damaged by their participation. Don't get me wrong: I'm the last person to belt out a Haugen tune, but I also wouldn't go around letting everyone know why I wasn't singing.

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331856076' post='2401499']
No document that was cited states that guitars, piano's, or otherwise are proper for mass. That's literally all I was trying to say.
[/quote]
Again, not really sure where guitars and pianos came into this conversation. No one is arguing about guitars in this thread.

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1331856551' post='2401511']
Your assumption of my arrogance is quite a stretch and I think it inappropriate to do that.
[/quote]
Let me rephrase: you come off as arrogant here.

[Aloysius]

I have travelled here all the way from 1987 to skim this thread and offer a few points of my own!

every effort should be made to teach the faithful to sing the responses, but their freedom to gain spiritually from only internally joining in the responses rather than externally should be maintained so that each can join in the liturgy according to the spirituality that most works with them. if one is joining in the responses internally, one is not necessarily participating any less than the person next to them joining in the responses out loud, and indeed someone saying them out loud can be participating less than someone joining in them internally depending upon the level of internalization the vocal person has. true active actual participation always has the internalized participation as the goal.
________________________________________
propers ALONE chanted = good.
hymns IN ADDITION TO all chanted propers = good. it might prolong the liturgy, depending on the community in question that might be a good idea.
hymns IN PLACE OF propers (E.G. GIRM songs option 4) = impoverishment of the liturgy.
_________________________________________

St. Stefano's was circular based on the design of the Holy Sepulchre--the design was not done with the view of orientating the liturgy in a circular way (as modern circular designs are for), but rather to facilitate the influx of pilgrims and make it easiest for them to come to the attraction to which they were on a pilgrimage--the Holy Sepulchre itself in Jerusalem, or the relic of St. Stephen the Proto-Martyr that was once in St. Stefanos. You can see in the following image how the liturgy was still oriented with a liturgical east in mind in the pre-conciliar days... note that if you were on the other side of the altar the priest was still not facing you in any kind of versus populum position.

[IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/2qtcsjc.jpg[/IMG]

I cannot speak for when that altar was made and what the altar looked like in the 6th century, but I can reasonably argue that there was no versus-populum inspired circular orientation as is present in modern circular church architecture. think of the pre-pew mentality of the "mass" where a mass of people would gather for the liturgy; think even of the modern mentality in pilgrimage centres like Rome where pilgrims and tourists move all about the vast open spaces of places like St. Peters but gather into a clump (these days delineated by where the pews are set up, where people used to cluster together, to amass as it were, for liturgy)... this is what St. Stefano Rotondo was like, I believe, circular for the pilgrims, but the liturgy still oriented in a single direction.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1331753857' post='2400730']
I hate to be obnoxious about it, but in the middle ages the solution was obvious to them: pay for good religious art like you mean it! Patronage is how you get good art, no matter what kind you want. The modernists get tons of very nice, objectively modern art because they will pay for it, so their artists don't have the choice of a) making good art and starving or b) stopping the art and working at a grocery store.
[/quote]
I see this truly present in my parish; we are known for our music. I wish more churches in our diocese could have what we have. Some do lack the financial resources, I think, while others lack the conviction about what is necessary.