Threat Of Excommunication

[M.SIGGA]

Note the "E" word isn't necessarily always a formal decree from the Pope or a Bishop. People indeed "excommunicate themselves" when they knowingly and defiantly reject Church teaching on key essential Christian truths (ex.Sanctity of Life) and I'm not just talking about politicians.

Most of the time it's ordinary fellow Catholic laymen we know at Church, at Work, at School, and at Fellowship.

I voted no.

I don't think it's a dangerous and fearful word for the majority of people, usually because when someone says "no, this is anti-Catholic and wrong," most people can sometimes find another authority figure who will say "yes. that's totally kosher." For some reason a lot of people seem sort of apathetic too.

I think it's largely because we live in a society that preaches LOUDLY that old Negro spiritual "When We all Get to Heaven" and HELL no longer means anything.

We need a Revival.

[Ash Wednesday]

I am with you, sigga. I think people associate "excommunication" with being a rather archaic term that is "pre-Vatican II"



Though I do think that it COULD revive it's meaning.

[tobk2000]

I think that if people were formally excommunicated then it would be different, and they would wake up more, but when they excommunicate themselves it doesnt' bother them too much

[Aloysius]

there seems to be more and more of a move towards semi-formal excommunications, however. i mean, the bishops actually tend to use the word warning people that such and such will cause their self-excommunication.

i think if Kerry becomes president and goes through with plans to support parental murder rights (also known as 'abortion rights') the Pope should formally declare "you've excommunicated yourself"

i see that as the direction it's going, in that formal excommunications may take on the form of "you've excommunicated yourself"


but i agree, american Catholics don't tend to take it that seriously anymore. which is why i think we should be making actual formal declarations that certain people that claim to be Catholic but publicly work against Church teachings have excommunicated themselves and should not be seen as Catholics in good standing.

[Dave]

I dunno ... remember Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, NE?

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Dave' date='May 6 2004, 09:12 AM'] I dunno ... remember Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz of Lincoln, NE?  [/quote]
He is a good example, but if all the other bishops don't take the same action, there doesn't seem to be much impact. Like the only reason I knew who he was is because I read certain magazines that talk about this sort of stuff, and the average American Catholic does not.

The only record of public excommunication of Catholic politicians that I can readily think of is when Archbishop Joseph Rummel of New Orleans excommunicated those political leaders and supporters who were publicly supporting Segregation against intergration laws and acts that were trying to be passed. I don't mean to make the archbishop's actions to sound political, but this was extrememly effective in Louisiana because some of the Catholic people down here were acting crazy.

[HomeTeamFamily]

i dont think that those who are in danger of being excommunicated are of the mindset TO care.....or else they would not be dong the things that have led up to that point......its really easy in this day and age to find a belief system that suits your liking and that i think leads to a lack of respect for the Truth

i voted no

[socalscout]

I think we see Catholics in the media that are not indicative of the faithful. The media is biased against Catholicism and, as we have seen numerous times, will air any segment that puts the Catholic Church in a bad light.

What's the best way to deface the Church? Show Catholics who dissent. This will show a Church in decline even though it is not.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='socalscout' date='May 6 2004, 04:34 PM'] I think we see Catholics in the media that are not indicative of the faithful. The media is biased against Catholicism and, as we have seen numerous times, will air any segment that puts the Catholic Church in a bad light.

What's the best way to deface the Church? Show Catholics who dissent. This will show a Church in decline even though it is not. [/quote]
I'm also talking about all those Catholics who continually and defiantly use contraceptives, fornicate, marry divorced people and marry outside the Church, etc. and are called to abstain from the Eucharist until they repent/seek forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation - the fact is that many of them don't. It's not all that different from the political standpoint; it's just those Catholic politicians are being called out in a more personal fashion.

[socalscout]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' date='May 6 2004, 03:41 PM'] I'm also talking about all those Catholics who continually and defiantly use contraceptives, fornicate, marry divorced people and marry outside the Church, etc. and are called to abstain from the Eucharist until they repent/seek forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation - the fact is that many of them don't. It's not all that different from the political standpoint; it's just those Catholic politicians are being called out in a more personal fashion. [/quote]
Yeah but where are you getting your stats? I only know the microcosm of my Parish so if based on those people that I know then the answer is that the faithful is just that and not the "contraceptives, fornicate, marry divorced people and marry outside the Church, etc" dessenting Catholics.

Also I myself used to be one of those Catholics and Excommunication was way less serious than a tax audit in my list of "serious things". I am not that person now which is the beauty of the Holy Spirit.

What I am saying is that American secular values, which we are exposed to everyday, are not indicative of American Catholic values. I have no stats to backup that claim. I guess I am going by gut feeling.

Edited May 6, 2004 by socalscout

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Nobody is worried these days. They think everyone is saved and that they have nothing to worry about. Satan has infilitrated the minds of many Americans today.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='socalscout' date='May 6 2004, 04:50 PM']Yeah but where are you getting your stats? I only know the microcosm of my Parish so if based on those people that I know then the answer is that the faithful is just that and not the "contraceptives, fornicate, marry divorced people and marry outside the Church, etc" dessenting Catholics.

Also I myself used to be one of those Catholics and Excommunication  was way less serious than a tax audit in my list of "serious things". I am not that person now which is the beauty of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]
1. I come from an incredibly large and enormous Catholic family that's so big I'm sure we represent a good cross-section of Catholic America

2. I grew up in a really dense Catholic environment and community all my life and I can speak for my family, past teachers, peers, and people I have gone to school with and worked with all my life, some even since I was a little papoose.

I don't have "official stats" but there are a lot of factors that one can notice - at my first college for instance there were many people who hadn't been to Confession since their first one who still have recieved communion every Mass since then. I'm not saying there aren't lots of good Catholics, but some people seem to be receptive to God on Sunday and deaf to the Church 6 other days of the week, and I agree about this too - same here with a guy feeling:

[quote]What I am saying is that American secular values, which we are exposed to everyday, are not indicative of American Catholic values. I have no stats to backup that claim. I guess I am going by gut feeling.[/quote]

[WildCatRupe]

One quick thing I wanted to add. Neither the Church, the Pope, or the Magesterium has the ability, or has ever or will ever claim the ability to excommunicate someone. A good parallel to draw is that of Sainthood. The Church can't get someone into heaven by declaring them a Saint, but rather we declare officially what God has already done. The Church merely says, "This is what we, as a church, believe that God has done." Someone is declared a saint because we believe they have been welcomed into the Beatific vision that Heaven. This is the same idea that teaches us that the Church cannot excommunicate anyone. They themselves do it, by promoting ideas or actions contrary to Catholic doctrine (doctrine being the only set of beliefs Catholics are required to believe in order to remain a Catholic). When the Church excommunicates someone, they are saying something to the effect of, "This person's actions are contrary to the doctrines of the Church, and they have excommunicated themselves." Even the word itself, excommunicate, means (loosly translated) to remove from community. So by believing and promoting things that the community of Catholic believers hold, they ARE removing themsevles from the community. In my opinion, i just wish priests (like the ones at the Paulist center who continue to give Kerry Holy Eucharist ::shudders: would stand up for what the profess to believe. I continue to pray for that. PAX


Timmy

[M.SIGGA]

The charge of excommunication by the Church is completely biblical. In 1 Timothy 1 St. Paul says:

[quote]18
9 10 I entrust this charge to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophetic words once spoken about you. Through them may you fight a good fight
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by having faith and a good conscience. [b]Some, by rejecting conscience, have made a shipwreck of their faith,
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among them Hymenaeus 11 and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. [/b][/quote]

In 2 Timothy 2 St. Paul follows up and offers the prayers of the Church for their repentence:

[quote][b]16
Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless,
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and their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
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who have deviated from the truth by saying that (the) resurrection has already taken place and are upsetting the faith of some. [/b]
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Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands, bearing this inscription, "The Lord knows those who are his"; and, "Let everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord avoid evil."
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In a large household there are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for lofty and others for humble use.
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If anyone cleanses himself of these things, he will be a vessel for lofty use, dedicated, beneficial to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
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So turn from youthful desires and pursue righteousness, faith,love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord 5 with purity of heart.
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Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels.
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A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant,
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correcting opponents with kindness. [b]It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth,
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6 and that they may return to their senses out of the devil's snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.[/b] [/quote]

It has always been the duty of the Church to recognize false teaching (ers), and when Church and State were combined, the Church presented heretics to the Civil Authorities to avoid polluting the faith of the community, but not without the prayers of the Church. Once Civil Authorities were in control, punishment might be inflicted, sometimes Capital punishment if heresy was considered a Capital Crime, because it was sometimes a Capital Crime to attack the Monarch's or the State religion.

This sounds harsh, but this is how the court system evolved after feudalism; there were religious courts and civil courts. After the Reformation until Revolution swept across Europe, in Protestant countries those courts were simply combined or merged together and punishments and fines remained the same.

It is true that a person indeed personally chooses to excommunicate themself, but it is the Church's duty to recognize it and root it out for the protection of the Faith and the faithful because they ALONE have that authority

Edited May 7, 2004 by M.SIGGA

[CreepyCrawler]

i didn't really know what excommunication meant until about last year. before that i just thought you were kicked out of your parish. maybe that's what other people think nowadays... (as you can tell, i didn't have a very good formation as a child).
if people only knew what they were doing to their souls.