Winchester Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1331625067' post='2400035'] The patriarchal nature of society hurts men just as much as it hurts women. [/quote] snort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubertus Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1331650098' post='2400087'] I think the biggest part of how it hurts men is that by re-enforcing the "status quo" of women being inferior to men, we're also saying that men are too stupid to act virtuously. That men are incapable of treating women with dignity, that they're just power-hungry animals that have physiological "needs" that women have to fulfill. It's completely degrading. Oh, and Anne12 - I apologize for the giant thread hijack. [/quote] I don't think it's fair to assert that someone who is in support of a patriarchal society believes that women are inferior to men. That may apply to some cases, but not all. And as for this attitude that men can't act virtuously, where is this evident? I don't see the relation between someone lacking virtue and therefore needing to be in a place of power. And I know you're talking about our American society, but I just want to point out that virtue comes from virtus which was often used to mean "manliness." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mme_hardy Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I agree with Basilisa Marie. The patriarchal nature of society also means that men aren't supposed to take care of themselves -- it's weak to go see a doctor, and weakest of all to go see a therapist. Even if you're in terrible personal circumstances, seeing a psych is seen as a girl thing to do. (I see this in my friends and in people I love.) Arbitrary definitions of "real men" and "real women" keep actual, physical flesh-and-blood people from being who they were born to be. Real men do eat quiche, and so do real women, and real children. (I hate the stuff, but that's a side issue.) Right now, without feminism, it would be A-okay legally for a manager to grab a woman's *ss at work; if she objected, there would be nothing she could do about it. It would be fine for that same manager to call a male employee a "pansy" and a "girl". Without feminism, it would be fine to have job ads that said "Help Wanted - Men" and "Help Wanted - Women". (I saw those myself, with my own eyes). Those are things that all happen in modern life, and the laws against them were pushed by feminists of both sexes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubertus Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I don't think what you're talking about is directly related to patriarchal society. It's an issue of an overly "macho" culture, or machismo as I think they call it in Hispanic countries. It's the brutish and primitive attitude of uncivilized men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mme_hardy Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Hubertus, what's the difference between "a patriarchal society" and "a macho society"? I'm not sure I'm following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 [quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1331653202' post='2400095'] I don't think it's fair to assert that someone who is in support of a patriarchal society believes that women are inferior to men. That may apply to some cases, but not all. And as for this attitude that men can't act virtuously, where is this evident? I don't see the relation between someone lacking virtue and therefore needing to be in a place of power. And I know you're talking about our American society, but I just want to point out that virtue comes from virtus which was often used to mean "manliness." [/quote] Right, it used to mean manliness because those philosophers believed that women were sub-human, mal-formed men. The attitude that men can't act virtuously? The most prominent example I can think of is when society in general blames victims of sexual assault for "asking for it" or "not being careful enough" in some way. Those kinds of ideas silently reinforce the notion that men can't actually control their impulses or just that men have desires to dominate women. That's the kind of thing that I say is degrading to men. It's a sort of "boys will be boys" attitude, and that's insulting - all of us are called to live a life directed toward higher things, pursuing virtue. Does that clarify things? And I'm not necessarily talking about taking down the patriarchy. That's silly. I'm talking about feminism that upholds the dignity of both sexes, that says that even though men and women are different they have the same dignity and should have the same rights in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 [quote name='mme_hardy' timestamp='1331653217' post='2400096'] I agree with Basilisa Marie. The patriarchal nature of society also means that men aren't supposed to take care of themselves -- it's weak to go see a doctor, and weakest of all to go see a therapist. Even if you're in terrible personal circumstances, seeing a psych is seen as a girl thing to do. (I see this in my friends and in people I love.) Arbitrary definitions of "real men" and "real women" keep actual, physical flesh-and-blood people from being who they were born to be. Real men do eat quiche, and so do real women, and real children. (I hate the stuff, but that's a side issue.) Right now, without feminism, it would be A-okay legally for a manager to grab a woman's *ss at work; if she objected, there would be nothing she could do about it. It would be fine for that same manager to call a male employee a "pansy" and a "girl". Without feminism, it would be fine to have job ads that said "Help Wanted - Men" and "Help Wanted - Women". (I saw those myself, with my own eyes). Those are things that all happen in modern life, and the laws against them were pushed by feminists of both sexes. [/quote] It has nothing to do with being a patriarchal society society, and everything to do with our sick culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubertus Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331654530' post='2400107'] It has nothing to do with being a patriarchal society society, and everything to do with our sick culture. [/quote] I've reached my quota, but, *prop* [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1331654283' post='2400105'] Right, it used to mean manliness because those philosophers believed that women were sub-human, mal-formed men. [/quote] Sub-human and mal-formed men? Hm... That's not the impression I got from it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but where did you get this? But I might be straying to far from the topic with that question.. [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1331654283' post='2400105'] The attitude that men can't act virtuously? The most prominent example I can think of is when society in general blames victims of sexual assault for "asking for it" or "not being careful enough" in some way. Those kinds of ideas silently reinforce the notion that men can't actually control their impulses or just that men have desires to dominate women. That's the kind of thing that I say is degrading to men. It's a sort of "boys will be boys" attitude, and that's insulting - all of us are called to live a life directed toward higher things, pursuing virtue. Does that clarify things? [/quote] I agree that this is terrible and degrading to men and women, but I don't think patriarchy directly results in this. Like cmotherofpirl said, it's our macho-man culture that chooses to fault the woman instead of the man. That's the exact kind of thing, the rape example, that's going on in the Hispanic countries I mentioned earlier. But it's not inherent of a patriarchal society. As a sort of microcosmic example, my family could probably be seen as patriarchal, with my dad being the head and managing the providing for the family and such, but taking advantage of women was definitely not something that was instilled in me in my upbringing, nor did any of us ever have the attitude that women were inferior. (and of course my mom has her own authorities.. lol) Edited March 13, 2012 by Hubertus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mme_hardy Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331654530' post='2400107'] It has nothing to do with being a patriarchal society society, and everything to do with our sick culture. [/quote] This seems like a double standard here. When I quote something that is happening right now that feminism disagrees with, I'm told "that's not patriarchy, it's the culture". When I quote things that used to happen that feminism legislated against, I'm told "that's not patriarchy, it's macho". What exactly is patriarchy, and what are we talking about? The feminists I know and hang out with sometimes use "patriarchy" as shorthand for "men are expected to be in charge". When they talk about "patriarchical culture", that doesn't just mean "one idealized man is the head of one idealized family", they mean all aspects of the culture. Let me give you an example. It is not funny when guys get raped in prison -- I can't believe we all make jokes about that. I don't care if that's "macho" or "patriarchy" or whatever label -- what I care about is the idea that the weaker are the prey of the stronger sexually, and that sexual cruelty that is taken moderately seriously when applied to women is seen as funny when it happens to men. That is just one example of why feminism matters to me -- that it's okay to treat people worse because of what sex they are. Before you say "feminists don't care about men being raped", check out [url="http://www.justdetention.org/en/staff.aspx"]http://www.justdetention.org/en/staff.aspx[/url] the board of "Stop Prisoner Rape". A lot of female faces there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1331658643' post='2400142'] Sub-human and mal-formed men? Hm... That's not the impression I got from it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but where did you get this? [/quote] Tertullian. He's hilarious. Also a bit of a heretic, but still interesting to read, because he's the first Father to use Latin. Also Aquinas. Although he asserts that God intentionally formed women (for the "work of generation"), and thus are good, he first claims (based on Aristotle) that individually their natures are defective. So ultimately he does say good things, but not without recognizing that women are still defective men. [quote][size=3][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]As regards the [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07762a.htm"]individual[/url] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm"]nature[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif], [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm"]woman[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]perfect[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm"]woman[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] comes from defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence; such as that of a south wind, which is moist, as the [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01713a.htm"]Philosopher[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] observes (De Gener. Animal. iv, 2). On the other hand, as regards [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm"]human[/url] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm"]nature[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] in general, [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm"]woman[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] is not misbegotten, but is included in [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm"]nature's[/url] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08069b.htm"]intention[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] as directed to the work of generation. Now the general [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08069b.htm"]intention[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] of [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm"]nature[/url] [color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]depends on [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif], Who is the [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]universal[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Author[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] of [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm"]nature[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]. Therefore, in producing [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm"]nature[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif], [/font][/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] formed not only the male but also the [/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]female[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif].[/font][/color][/size][/quote] But Aquinas also didn't believe in the Immaculate Conception (if I'm remembering right), even though he thought Mary was razzle dazzle. [quote] I agree that this is terrible and degrading to men and women, but I don't think patriarchy directly results in this. Like cmotherofpirl said, it's our macho-man culture that chooses to fault the woman instead of the man. That's the exact kind of thing, the rape example, that's going on in the Hispanic countries I mentioned earlier. But it's not inherent of a patriarchal society. As a sort of microcosmic example, my family is patriarchal, with my dad being the head and managing the providing for the family and such, but taking advantage of women was definitely not something that was instilled in me in my upbringing, nor did any of us ever have the attitude that women were inferior. (and of course my mom has her own authorities.. lol) [/quote] Again...I'm not talking about patriarchy. I'm talking about human dignity and giving everyone the same rights, and trying to change society's misogyny. There's a lot of disagreement among feminists over what feminism actually is (figures, right?). But that still doesn't mean that you can throw all of it out, which was my original claim. Like mme_hardy said, some people talk about patriarchal culture and mean men taking all the beans and oppressing everyone else. Other people talk about kyriarchy, which is people having unjust "lordship" over another, regardless of sex. Bringing patriarchy into the mix makes things more fuzzy, which is why I'm trying to keep it out of my arguments. Edited March 13, 2012 by Basilisa Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 My Attention deficit has prevented me from reading all the posts so I don't know if this has been mentioned but I would have thought satan would be top of the list and its favourite tool is religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kia ora Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1331635499' post='2400042'] interesting . . . do elaborate! [/quote] Okay, maybe 'just as much' is an exaggeration. I certainly think men have it better off in a patriarchal society than women in terms of things like income. Examining female gender roles made me look more closely at the roles of men in society and it made me realise men are expected to behave in certain ways too, ways that are determined by society. Men are supposed to be tough and stoic - how often do you see men cry in movies now, let alone old ones? But we're humans too, we have feelings and we can get hurt. Imagine the emotional damage that's caused when boys and men are expected to bottle it all up. So despite the name, I think feminism has a lot to say about and for men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie12 Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1331675003' post='2400244'] My Attention deficit has prevented me from reading all the posts so I don't know if this has been mentioned but I would have thought satan would be top of the list and its favourite tool is religion. [/quote] I didn't put that as an option because I knew everyone would choose it and I wanted the poll to be effective. lol! But great point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1331727400' post='2400537'] Okay, maybe 'just as much' is an exaggeration. I certainly think men have it better off in a patriarchal society than women in terms of things like income. Examining female gender roles made me look more closely at the roles of men in society and it made me realise men are expected to behave in certain ways too, ways that are determined by society. Men are supposed to be tough and stoic - how often do you see men cry in movies now, let alone old ones? But we're humans too, we have feelings and we can get hurt. Imagine the emotional damage that's caused when boys and men are expected to bottle it all up. So despite the name, I think feminism has a lot to say about and for men. [/quote] agreed. I know this may offend Catholic sensibilities but I believe we're all human before we're anything else (even regarding our sex/gender). There are differences, sure, but why is it that people have difficulty seeing sameness and appreciating the differences simultaneously? It seems to me there are times when the differences are important (specifically concerning marriage, sexuality, parentage) but most of the time I don't think they are. Well, maybe I shouldn't say that. Maybe I should say that most of the time we create difference when there doesn't need to be any . . . I'm not making sense so just ignore me. But I do generally agree wid ur post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r2Dtoo Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1331578042' post='2399682']Feminism is a poorly conceived novelty. It's merely collectivist claptrap.[/quote] Feminism is the clap, yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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