Gay's Being Married?

[Guest winged messenger]

I belive that gay's should be allowed to get married in the Catholic church. I think that you can't just go around and tell people what you can and can't do and if you did so that would be like being a communist like in North Korea or someplace else. I don't know of anyone that is gay that is related to me. I still do support gay marriages and i'm not gay at all. I'm just trying to defend there freedom to do what they want to do. I think that if the Church says that there can be no gay marrages at all then why did the Catholic church scandal happen and it happened so long ago and until 2000 it was finally revealed to the public. I mean any priest could be gay and we still don't know and the priest that sexually assulted the alter boy's was revealed and everyone was in shock and awe at what happened in the year 2000 and still no one was brave enought to go to the head of the Church and say that there had been priest who had sexually assulted little boy's at mass. And yes probably no one would belive a kid who said that for such a young age and that maybe if that had some type of evidence then people would then come to the expectation that something was going on at that time. So what I'm saying is that if the church all of a sudden say's NO to gay marriage then why wasn't it put away of in the early years and why now all of a sudden are the media and the Church saying no not at all acceptable until now and they could at least do something about it than blabbleing on about it for a year or so. I still think that they should have a right to get married to the same perosn if they wanted to and if they are Catholic then I think defenitly. I say this because if they both are Catholic then they should be allowed and if they are of a different religion then let there own religion decide on how it should be dealt with and example would be if two Protestant got married then there own church should take it into there own hands at that the Catholic Church can't just go around ordering all other's around as if they were the leader of all affairs.

[cappie]

I think I get your point. However I posted this article which I think captures the Catholic Church's position on the topic. It is by Cardinal George Pell the Archbishop of Sydney Australia.
[url="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9460399%5E7583,00.html"]The Australian[/url]

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='winged messenger' date='May 6 2004, 03:22 AM'] I belive that gay's should be allowed to get married in the Catholic church. I think that you can't just go around and tell people what you can and can't do.. [/quote]
So why do you feel the need to tell the Church what to do. Isn't that hypocrisy?

[Dave]

The Catholic Church has always condemned homosexual activity. It's sinful because it's selfish in that it can't possibly transmit life. That, btw, is the same reason why things like contraception and masturbation are also sinful. So a homosexual marriage would be a celebration of selfishness, I'm sorry to say.

You say you can't just go around and tell people what they can and can't do. According to your logic, the Church shouldn't even tell people not to murder, lie, cheat, steal, blaspheme, commit adultery, etc.

[JP2Iloveyou]

Essentially, sir or maam, you are a relativist. You have a moral philosophy that says you should be able to do whatever you want, whenever you want. There is no objective truth about morality, in your opinion. Such a position is absurd though because that would justify anything, including such abominable practices as slavery, abortion, and the Holocaust. If you still want to hold to such a view, please formulate some points to debate over. From what I could gather from what you wrote, it was simply your opinion about how we should treat other people and others' feelings. Those are weak arguments at best in philosophical thought. Instead, say something like, "I think gays should be allowed to marry because by denying them that right, it is a violation of the 14th Amendment guaranteeing equal protection under the law." There are many more credible arguments out there in support of gay marriage. All of them are objectively false, and therefore wrong, but they will strengthen your argument much more than by just saying, "I don't think the Church should be able to tell people what to do."

[Brother Adam]

Also, read "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis for an exercise in logic.

[Aloysius]

wow, i love it, we're tryin to help him strengthen his argument against us!

just shows how much we trust in the Truth of Christ's Church that we know even with the strongest argument it won't topple the Moral Statutes of the Holy Bride of Christ!

Pax Out

[Ellenita]

You muddle two seperate arguements in your post.

The issue of whether people who are gay should be allowed to marry in church is entirely different to the issue of the sexual abuse committed by priests on children. Of course there are people who would like these two issues to be blurred so that the whole argument of celibate priests can be raised, which is a whole new argument!

It isn't easy to say that two consenting adults of the same sex who want to marry each other should not be able to do so within the church, especially knowing that this position may well cause pain to people you care about. However we are not promised that life will be easy in this world but rather more that we should live our lives as Christians within a hostile world. The secular world would have us believe that there are no consequences to living our lives as we please, it has no understanding of the concept of sin, whereas we know that sin most certainly has consequences.

The teaching of the church is very clear. Marriage is between a man and woman and [b]anyone[/b] who is not married is to live a chaste life.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 16 2004, 02:47 PM'] wow, i love it, we're tryin to help him strengthen his argument against us!

just shows how much we trust in the Truth of Christ's Church that we know even with the strongest argument it won't topple the Moral Statutes of the Holy Bride of Christ!

Pax Out [/quote]
The whole point is, if your going to even bother making an argument, make a half-way worthy attempt at it. Of course no matter how strong of an argument it is, we will always be able to counter it.

[OwNeD_byGoD]

tisk tisk tisk

first and foremost, God always hates the sin and not the sinner

being homosexual is not a sin, what is though is that actions in which you partake by being one, that is why if you are a celebate homosexual priest then who will be able to tell right? so in itself it is not wrong since you are not involved in the action, because once you become a priest you become a FAITHFUL spouse of the church

second of all, i would like to say that our judging as bright or philosophical as we would like to believe we are would more than likely be extremely off, the reason is because if we become acustomed to a way of living then after a while eventhough it is wrong, we dont see it as wrong, and you would like everyone to think as you do, which would make you an anarchist

so i tell you, its not hat we believe the answer to be, its what the Bible tells us the answer is, dont try to change it to make it your own, got it?

[the_rev]

Gays should not be allowed to be married. They can not procreate and help the church to continue to move on throughout history, for first starters.

Secondly, God made Adam and Eve, now you may say, well someone had to give them these homosexual feelings, but that wouldn't of been God.

But thirdly I read in Crossview how that as a religious community who have take the three vows, of Chasity, obedience and poverty, how they can't believe taking those vows, someone would as priests hurt little children. I had to agree with the Father Joseph there.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='winged messenger' date='May 5 2004, 10:22 PM'] I belive that gay's should be allowed to get married in the Catholic church. I think that you can't just go around and tell people what you can and can't do and if you did so that would be like being a communist like in North Korea or someplace else. I don't know of anyone that is gay that is related to me. I still do support gay marriages and i'm not gay at all. I'm just trying to defend there freedom to do what they want to do. I think that if the Church says that there can be no gay marrages at all then why did the Catholic church scandal happen and it happened so long ago and until 2000 it was finally revealed to the public. I mean any priest could be gay and we still don't know and the priest that sexually assulted the alter boy's was revealed and everyone was in shock and awe at what happened in the year 2000 and still no one was brave enought to go to the head of the Church and say that there had been priest who had sexually assulted little boy's at mass. And yes probably no one would belive a kid who said that for such a young age and that maybe if that had some type of evidence then people would then come to the expectation that something was going on at that time. So what I'm saying is that if the church all of a sudden say's NO to gay marriage then why wasn't it put away of in the early years and why now all of a sudden are the media and the Church saying no not at all acceptable until now and they could at least do something about it than blabbleing on about it for a year or so. I still think that they should have a right to get married to the same perosn if they wanted to and if they are Catholic then I think defenitly. I say this because if they both are Catholic then they should be allowed and if they are of a different religion then let there own religion decide on how it should be dealt with and example would be if two Protestant got married then there own church should take it into there own hands at that the Catholic Church can't just go around ordering all other's around as if they were the leader of all affairs. [/quote]
I belive that gay's should be allowed to get married in the Catholic church.

Your entitled to your own personal beliefs - however the Catholic Church is not a democracy, it upholds the laws of God.
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I think that you can't just go around and tell people what you can and can't do and if you did so that would be like being a communist like in North Korea or someplace else.

Sure we can, the Church upholds God's laws.
So can the government: thats why we obey traffic laws, pay taxes, don't own slaves, and don't kill people for entertainment.
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still do support gay marriages and i'm not gay at all. I'm just trying to defend there freedom to do what they want to do.

Freedom is not doing what you want to do, its to do what you ought to do. You are talking about license; doing whatever. Nobody can do what ever they want to do.
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think that if the Church says that there can be no gay marrages at all then why did the Catholic church scandal happen and it happened so long ago and until 2000 it was finally revealed to the public.

This is a totally new subject an unrelated to your original argument. Scandal and sin are nothing new in the Catholic Church - after all the Church is made up of sinners like you and me. The "scandal" was noticed by the news media in 2000, it was not something new.
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I mean any priest could be gay and we still don't know and the priest that sexually assulted the alter boy's was revealed and everyone was in shock and awe at what happened in the year 2000 and still no one was brave enought to go to the head of the Church and say that there had been priest who had sexually assulted little boy's at mass.

Sex abuse didn't start in the year 2000, must cases the media jumped on were over 30 years old. You think sex abuse is something new? You think its limited to Catholics? Every social service agency and religous organization has problems with sex abuse.
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So what I'm saying is that if the church all of a sudden say's NO to gay marriage then why wasn't it put away of in the early years and why now all of a sudden are the media and the Church saying no not at all acceptable until now and they could at least do something about it than blabbleing on about it for a year or so.

lol. THe Church is not "suddenly" saying NO to gay marriage. The subject never came up before. It has never been acceptable and never will be acceptable to the Church. Marriage is between a man and a woman, which was decided by God.
It doesn't matter how many laws the states or government come up with, they cannot change the law of God. THe state is NOT in charge of right and wrong :God is.
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the Catholic Church can't just go around ordering all other's around as if they were the leader of all affairs....

The Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ, and governed by the successor of St Peter, speaks the Word of God.

[mulls]

when you get married, you are really standing before God in doing, no matter who the minister is.

even if ANY church allowed gays to be married within its confines, that does not mean God will EVER accept or condone it.

[phatcatholic]

pham,

i fear that this may be a hit-and-run post by "winged messenger".........but i hope it is not. it is apparent to me that his words (assuming we're dealing w/ a "he") have been bottled up for a while, and so i am glad that he has found an outlet. i hope that he will stay w/ us for a while, at least long enough to understand where the Church is coming from on this issue. we should be thankful that he has chosen this place. i don't feel the need to comment on how strong or weak his argument is.

that said, if i could give my meager defense....

i think that one of the single most fundamental precepts of catholic ethics and morality is the fact that we are all made in the image and likeness of God. what does this mean? in my mind, it means that b/c we are made in his very image and likeness, we are meant to share in many of His same characteristics. of course, to answer st. michael's call to the heavens ("who is like God?!?!) we must say, “no one.” but, He has desired that we share in His glory in some small way. therefore, since we are made in His image and likeness, and He desires that we share in His glory, the only way to fulfill this desire (a desire that, spectacularly is both ours AND His), is to unite our image to His.

well, how do we do that? in my mind, this is achieved by learning as much as we can about His essence, who He is, how He works, and what He desires--and then matching our essence, who we are, how we work, and what we desire to Him to the best of our ability. notice that, in the bible, the greatest and most noble acts of man are those that mirror the acts of God. i mention the following three b/c they have a direct impact on this topic.

1. love is selfless, and we must love unconditionally, b/c God is Love Unconditional.
2. marriage is a profound sacrament b/c it mirrors the intimate bond between the Bride and the Bridegroom, the Church and Jesus Christ.
3. children are a treasure b/c through procreation we perpetuate the act of the One Creator

again, i must reiterate that all three actions--loving, marrying, and creating life--are glorifying acts that are highly praised b/c they typify our Lord's very essence. when engaging in these acts [i][b]as the Lord does[/b][/i], we unite our very image and likeness to that image and likeness of God from which we were all made.

Now, w/ this information we can look at the topic of same-sex marriage and ask a few qualifying questions that will help us to determine if same-sex marriage is of God and if partaking in such an action will help us to unite our image with His.

[u][b]1. Is same-sex marriage open to new life?[/b][/u]
--this is an important question b/c, if we look at God, we find that the Love that is His essence from all eternity is inherently open to new life. Afterall, God, for the pure fact that He is Love, spawned two persons of the Trinity as well as all creation! However, when we look at the same-sex partnership, it is not open to new life. The union of the two simply cannot bring from itself a new creation (this will be expounded upon later).

[u][b]2. Is their a complementarity w/in the same-sex union that communicates the true selflessness of the love found w/in it?[/b][/u]
--this may at first seem harsh, but one has to remember that it is the very selfless nature of God’s love that created all that we know. God likewise created a complementarity within the bodies of man and woman so that they [i][b]naturally[/b][/i] communicate this selflessness. The sex organs of the man, b/c they are outside the body, are naturally giving. The sex organs of the woman, b/c they are inside the body, are naturally receiving. When these two come together, there is a true connectedness. the love that comes from this connectedness perfects the selfless quality by creating new life from this very connection.

However, when we look at the same-sex union, [i][b]the complementarity that is necessary in order to properly communicate the selfless nature of love does not exist[/b][/i]. It is at best, strained, and in all cases entirely unnatural. This is seen by looking at the body in and of itself. There is no part of the the male body that is meant to receive the sexual organs of another body, and consequently to receive life from another. There is no part of the female body that is meant to give or enter into another body, and consequently to give life to another. Any attempt to re-create the connectedness of the male and female body is found to be unnatural simply by observing the natural functions of the body.

[u][b]3. Is the homosexual sex act a natural act?[/b][/u]
--this question is important b/c the perfect unity, and the selfless love, and the openness to creation that typify God are all divine qualities b/c of God’s [i][b]very nature[/b][/i], b/c of who and what he inherently IS. So, in order to unite our image and likeness to His and thus share in his glory, we must communicate these qualities via our [i][b]very nature[/b][/i]. That is why the homosexual act and same-sex marriage are so often described as “unnatural” and that this quality is so often described as a point against it. The homosexual act is unnatural b/c it is not truly selfless and is not open to creation.

[u][b]4. Does same-sex marriage typify the unity found between the Church and Jesus Christ, the "Bride" and the "Bridegroom."[/b][/u]
--this is an important question b/c the bible uses the very members involved in our greatest earthly communion to describe the union between Jesus Christ and His Church. therefore, marriage must typify that union. on a purely physical level, the same-sex marriage is not properly analogous b/c it cannot help but contain either two Brides or two Grooms. since the Bible is written by the Holy Spirit, nothing w/in it is unintentional, so the masculinity of one member (the Groom) and the femininity of the other member (the Bride) cannot be ignored.

on a deeper level, we know as Christians that the Bride and the Bridegroom come together to form One Body of Christ, both physically and mystically connected. two become one in a singularly perfect way. on earth, we perpetuate this union through marriage, in which the Bride and the Groom come together as "one flesh" in Christ Jesus. it is mystical b/c it is a sacrament that institutes grace upon the participants and it is a "buddy system" ( ) through which two people help each other get to heaven. it is physical b/c of the complementarity of the two bodies involved, and b/c of the truly selfless love that is communicated when these two bodies come together during the marriage act.

however, the same-sex marriage is neither physical nor mystical--or, at least [b]not as physical and mystical as the unity between Christ and His Church[/b]. this is b/c it is not open to life, it does not present the complementarity of selfless love, it is unnatural, and it ignores the purposeful masculine and feminine imagery of the Bride and the Bridegroom.

[b]--therefore, it in no way can be accepted by the Church--[/b]


I feel that more could be said on the matter and that there is a better way to tie all of this together. However, I am likewise afraid that this discourse will become too verbose and convoluted if I continue. The theology of the body and the precepts of catholic sexual morality are still somewhat new to me, so I have not yet grasped a way to present them more pointedly and succinctly. Anyway, I hope this helps, and I encourage any additions by others to help make my defense more clear and effective.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited May 17, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Aloysius]

even if he does come back it's unlikely he knows the thread was moved to the Debate Table