Sarah147 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Hello, So, Jesus endured everything for our sakes, including temptations, scourging, death, etc. He didn't NEED to be purified, but DID HE undergo the Dark Night ...and for our sake? To help us go through it? Maybe on the Cross "My God...why have you forsaken/abandoned me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Very interesting question. You aren't the first to ask it. Father Iain Matthews wrote his doctoral thesis on this concept. I was fortunate enough to read it while I was at one of the Carmels because he had given them a copy of the manuscript. I don't know if he ever published it commercially but it was very academically oriented, so I doubt it would have been everyone's cup of tea. He didn't have a short answer to your question but he certainly thought it was an idea worth investigating and discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah147 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Not even I thought of it... someone brought it up at the program I went to. Very interesting, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Since you seem really interested in St John of the Cross right now - this is a very readable book by Iain Matthews called The Impact of God, and it's on the writings of St John of C. [url="http://www.amazon.com/The-Impact-God-Soundings-Paperbacks/dp/0340612576/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330820293&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.com/The-Impact-God-Soundings-Paperbacks/dp/0340612576/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330820293&sr=1-1[/url] Matthews is not only a scholar on St John but also a Carmelite priest himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Personally I believe that he did face the dark night, although I think it's important to be clear exactly what the dark night means. It's not lack of faith. Therese in her dark night never stopped believing even though she couldn't feel any emotional comfort and her mind was in turmoil; she still went on with her day, staking her whole life on trust. Jesus did that. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" is the opening line of Psalm 22, and Jesus' listeners would have known that. He was expressing his agony, but he was also expressing his trust - and giving one final lesson in who he was. That psalm segues beautifully from a cry of anguish to a song of triumph. I always smile when I reach those last two lines: [quote] From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me. I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him. From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him. The poor shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the Lord. May your hearts live for ever! All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. For dominion belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations. To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him. Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord, and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it. [/quote] We are 'the people yet unborn'. He was talking about us. I think people trivialise the dark night when they associate it with doubt, or even with a simple lack of feeling in prayer. It is painful. Bone-splinteringly painful. The people who have experienced it don't talk about it lightly. If there is a snapshot in the Gospels that showed what it might have been like for Jesus, I think it is Gethsemane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 [quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1330820717' post='2395854'] Personally I believe that he did face the dark night, although I think it's important to be clear exactly what the dark night means. It's not lack of faith. Therese in her dark night never stopped believing even though she couldn't feel any emotional comfort and her mind was in turmoil; she still went on with her day, staking her whole life on trust. Jesus did that. [b]"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" is the opening line of Psalm 22, and Jesus' listeners would have known that. He was expressing his agony, but he was also expressing his trust - and giving one final lesson in who he was. That psalm segues beautifully from a cry of anguish to a song of triumph.[/b] I always smile when I reach those last two lines: We are 'the people yet unborn'. He was talking about us. I think people trivialise the dark night when they associate it with doubt, or even with a simple lack of feeling in prayer. It is painful. Bone-splinteringly painful. The people who have experienced it don't talk about it lightly. If there is a snapshot in the Gospels that showed what it might have been like for Jesus, I think it is Gethsemane. [/quote] This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah147 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1330820422' post='2395850'] Since you seem really interested in St John of the Cross right now - this is a very readable book by Iain Matthews called The Impact of God, and it's on the writings of St John of C. [url="http://www.amazon.com/The-Impact-God-Soundings-Paperbacks/dp/0340612576/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330820293&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co...30820293&sr=1-1[/url] Matthews is not only a scholar on St John but also a Carmelite priest himself. [/quote] Wow! Will look into buying that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" is a cry of great anguish, Jesus feels forsaken. It is also a cry of totally rich Faith in the face of feeling totally abandoned by God. Jesus does not despair and say that there is no God because He cannot feel His Presence, rather He is aware only of the total and absolute absence of God and in every conceivable way. Jesus, in His anguish, rather and to the contrary, addresses a heartfelt prayer to God and this prayer is a beautiful and rich act of absolute Faith in God and in the presence of intense physical, mental, psychological, emotional and spiritual suffering. That God, indeed, is there though Jesus cannot feel any awarenes and the cry "My God, My God" pierces that absolute darkness with the Dark Light of His Faith. It has much to say to us. Edited March 5, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 His ideas are a bit controversial, but maybe check out von Balthasar. A volume to look out for is called [i]Mysterium Paschale[/i]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Huh, I always wondered about this topic, never thought to ask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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