Vatican Ii And Infallibility

[Guest ConfusedGlendale]

So I just got banned as a "Radical Traditionalist Agenda Pusher" from Catholic Forums or forums.catholic.com for posting this. I am not a radical traditionalist, (unless that means I believe in the Bible), but either way I'd like to address the same questions to you all. I am not trying to be rude or uncharitable, I just want the truth. Thank you for reading.



If Vatican II was infallible, can you answer these contradictions between Vatican II doctrines with past infallible dogma? And again, I am just asking for honest responses, not accusations of heresy or fanaticism. I truly want to hear from you all.


1. Vatican II Teaching: "All men are called to this Catholic unity which prefigures and promotes universal peace, and in different ways belong to it, or are related to it: The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, are called by God's grace to salvation." Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all can be saved." Lateran Council IV


2. Vatican II Teaching: "Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, desire with an explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church, are by that very intention joined to her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own." Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent


3. Vatican II Teaching: "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind." -Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal." -Athanasian Creed

Muslim Teaching: "People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust." Quran 4:171


4. Vatican II Teaching: "Even though the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ, neither all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during His passion" -Nostra Aetate

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you also. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain them who foretold of the coming of the Just One; of whom you have been now the betrayers and murderers" Acts 7:51-52

"For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own coutrymen, even as they have from the Jews, Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men; Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end." -1 Thessalonians 2:14-16


5. Vatican II Teaching: "By the Sacrament of Baptism, whenever it is properly conferred in the way the Lord determined [what! No Baptism of Desire?], and received with the proper disposition of soul, man becomes truly incorporated into Christ and is born to a sharing of the divine life." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "If anyone says that baptized persons are freed from all the Precepts of Holy Church, either those contained in Scripture or handed down by Tradition, so that they are not bound to observe them unless of their own accord they wish to submit themselves to these Precepts: Let him be anathema." Council of Trent


6. Vatican II Teaching: “Nor does divine providence deny the helps that are necessary for salvation to those who, through no fault of their own, have not yet attained to the express recognition of God yet who strive, not without divine grace, to lead an upright life." -Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: “Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.” -Romans 1:19-21

[Lil Red]

moving to debate table.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='ConfusedGlendale' timestamp='1330755419' post='2395588']
So I just got banned as a "Radical Traditionalist Agenda Pusher" from Catholic Forums or forums.catholic.com for posting this. I am not a radical traditionalist, (unless that means I believe in the Bible), but either way I'd like to address the same questions to you all. I am not trying to be rude or uncharitable, I just want the truth. Thank you for reading.



If Vatican II was infallible, can you answer these contradictions between Vatican II doctrines with past infallible dogma? And again, I am just asking for honest responses, not accusations of heresy or fanaticism. I truly want to hear from you all.


1. Vatican II Teaching: "All men are called to this Catholic unity which prefigures and promotes universal peace, and in different ways belong to it, or are related to it: The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, are called by God's grace to salvation." Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all can be saved." Lateran Council IV[/quote]A lot of these questions go hand in hand. I'll try to address each one that I can briefly, but if you want to discuss any question in particular, it might be best to do one at a time.

As for this question, your next question hints at the problem encountered by the bishops. If a person is baptized outside of the Church, his baptism is valid. Is this person validly baptized?

The early Church addressed this question of baptism. There were people called Donatists who claimed that when heretics baptize their baptism is invalid since the person performing the baptisms is important to the Sacrament. Augustine and the western bishops resoundingly declared that this was a heresy and absolutely false.

Now why do I bring up this problem of baptism here? If a person is baptized outside the Catholic Church (perhaps in the Othodox Church or even a Protestant), then so long as he fulfills the baptismal formula and the minister uses proper matter (water), form (I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit), and intention (the intent to baptize the person and to be baptized) then the Sacrament is valid. But wait, this person isn't a Catholic? Well, then you get into all sorts of other questions that I cannot address, but the point is that either baptism is an element of the Church of Christ and it extends out past the boundaries of the Catholic Church OR baptism outside the Church is invalid. This latter claim was completely rejected (I would argue infallibly) by the early Church.

Therefore we get Vatican II on the question of the Church. Here comes its definition of the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. This teaching does not mean that the Catholic Church does not have the fullness of the Church or that they are separate in the same way. Historically maybe it's harder to answer how "subsists in" can apply to the Church, but theologically this phrase makes a lot of sense. If you want more on how this works, we can discuss it. Let me just say that while "subsists in" and "is" might sound contradictory, they are not.

This definition is how this answer goes. Outside of the Church there isn't salvation because all salvation is through the Church (just as it is all through Christ). However, there are other places to find salvation than simply the Catholic Church. Vatican II says that the Catholic Church is the best, but what about the Orthodox? What about a person who lives rightly and isn't Catholic through no fault of their own? In these cases we can speak about salvation being possible for a variety of reasons. One of these reasons I'll address in another response to you, but I hope this clarifies this a little.

As a quick note, none of my responses are meant to be proof proper, but to explain how these teachings can and should be interpreted in conjunction with each other.

[qfnol31]

[quote]2. Vatican II Teaching: "Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, desire with an explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church, are by that very intention joined to her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own." Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent[/quote]Let's go back to the Baltimore Catechism to address this question: In the Baltimore Catechism 3, Question 644. "How many kinds of Baptism are there?" "There are three kinds of Baptism: Baptism of water, of blood, and of desire." This question brings up the heresy of Feeneyism, addressed by the Holy Office. I can't find a link I'm willing to post on here, so search for the letter. It ends with Fr. Feeney's excommunication for heresy.

This baptism of desire should answer the catechumen question, since they can partake in it. Even many modern Feeneyites are willing to accept this claim.

[Byzantine]

[quote name='ConfusedGlendale' timestamp='1330755419' post='2395588']
1. Vatican II Teaching: "All men are called to this Catholic unity which prefigures and promotes universal peace, and in different ways belong to it, or are related to it: The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, are called by God's grace to salvation." Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all can be saved." Lateran Council IV
[/quote]

I don't see the contradiction. Just because all men are called to salvation doesn't mean that they'll all embrace it. And I think that according to the Church's teachings (someone correct me if I err), those outside the Church can still be saved through her by an action of God's grace or something like that. But they are saved by coming into communion with the Church.

Right guys? Props will be taken as this being an acceptable statement of belief.

[Papist]

I don't see contradictions. I do see that the Pre-Vatican II quotes are more succinct and clear. The Vatican II quotes are saying the same thing, but are more verbose to reflect better the Church's teaching.

[mortify]

Peace in Christ during this holy season

[quote name='ConfusedGlendale' timestamp='1330755419' post='2395588']
1. Vatican II Teaching: "All men are called to this Catholic unity which prefigures and promotes universal peace, and in different ways belong to it, or are related to it: The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, are called by God's grace to salvation." Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all can be saved." Lateran Council IV[/quote]

There is no contradiction, all are called to Catholic unity.


[quote]2. Vatican II Teaching: "Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, desire with an explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church, are by that very intention joined to her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own." Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent
[/quote]

There is no contradiction, baptism of desire is a reality.

[quote]3. Vatican II Teaching: "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind." -Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal." -Athanasian Creed
[/quote]

Muslims *profess* to hold the faith of Abraham, there is no contradiction.


[quote]4. Vatican II Teaching: "Even though the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ, neither all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during His passion" -Nostra Aetate

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you also. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain them who foretold of the coming of the Just One; of whom you have been now the betrayers and murderers" Acts 7:51-52
[/quote]

"You" is not referring to every single Jews that has and will ever live.


[quote]5. Vatican II Teaching: "By the Sacrament of Baptism, whenever it is properly conferred in the way the Lord determined [what! No Baptism of Desire?], and received with the proper disposition of soul, man becomes truly incorporated into Christ and is born to a sharing of the divine life." - Unitatis Redintegratio

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "If anyone says that baptized persons are freed from all the Precepts of Holy Church, either those contained in Scripture or handed down by Tradition, so that they are not bound to observe them unless of their own accord they wish to submit themselves to these Precepts: Let him be anathema." Council of Trent
[/quote]

Yea, no contradiction

[quote]6. Vatican II Teaching: “Nor does divine providence deny the helps that are necessary for salvation to those who, through no fault of their own, have not yet attained to the express recognition of God yet who strive, not without divine grace, to lead an upright life." -Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: “Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; His eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.” -Romans 1:19-21
[/quote]

Invincible ignorance was taught before the Second Ecumenical Vatican Council

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='ConfusedGlendale' timestamp='1330755419' post='2395588']
4. Vatican II Teaching: "Even though the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ, neither all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during His passion" -Nostra Aetate

[/quote]
Yikes.

Otherwise, I agree with the others who have posted. These don't really contradict at all, most of them relate to the other only remotely...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='ConfusedGlendale' timestamp='1330755419' post='2395588']
So I just got banned as a "Radical Traditionalist Agenda Pusher" from Catholic Forums or forums.catholic.com for posting this. I am not a radical traditionalist, (unless that means I believe in the Bible), but either way I'd like to address the same questions to you all. I am not trying to be rude or uncharitable, I just want the truth. Thank you for reading.



If Vatican II was infallible, can you answer these contradictions between Vatican II doctrines with past infallible dogma? And again, I am just asking for honest responses, not accusations of heresy or fanaticism. I truly want to hear from you all.


1. Vatican II Teaching: "All men are called to this Catholic unity which prefigures and promotes universal peace, and in different ways belong to it, or are related to it: The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, are called by God's grace to salvation." Lumen Gentium

Pre-Vatican II Teaching: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all can be saved." Lateran Council IV[/quote]

All these examples are soundbite quotes that appear to contradict only because no context is given. Atheists do the same thing to pull apparent contradictions out of the Bible.

As for #1, the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus"]wiki page[/url] about this dogma includes an excellent explanation by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, an Orthodox bishop.

So perhaps you'll need to first explain where the contradictions lie since all of us so far are not seeing them. Or reconsider these examples you've cited by prayerfully seeking a deeper encounter with the Truth to see how statements that at first glance appear to contradict actually strengthen and support each other.

[J-Roq]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1330807474' post='2395783']
I don't see contradictions. I do see that the Pre-Vatican II quotes are more succinct and clear. The Vatican II quotes are saying the same thing, but are more verbose to reflect better the Church's teaching.
[/quote]
I believe this is really the most important post in the thread. It's absolutely true, and the exact problem that Vatican II seems to have created in the Church--ambiguous interpretations. It is so easy now to interpret the Council in any way that a priest (or bishop or cardinal or layman) desires that you can now go from one "Catholic" church to another just a block away and wonder if you're visiting churches of two different religions. This did happen at times before Vatican II, for sure, but in that case everyone knew which was right and which was wrong.

The great danger in Vatican II is confusing people as to what is right and what is wrong and creating more questions than giving answers. I agree that much of the OP's quotes are not direct contradictions to one another, but the open, ambiguous, and vague language of Vatican II is just as dangerous as a contradiction--if not more. Instead of openly contradicting, it allows people to interpret the Faith in ways that are contradictory to the Faith, all the while they are lulled into thinking they are right.

I think it's very important to not get wrapped up in meanings and interpretations, however. I believe pragmatism is the most simple route to take when it comes to determining what is right and what is wrong. Figuring out right from wrong is an extremely simple process. Does it actively a[size=4]nd fu[/size]lly bring you and/or other people closer to God? If yes, it is right. If no, it is wrong. Have the teachings since 1965 actively and fully brought people closer to God? I think the statistics speak for themselves. http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/29_Figures.pdf

God Bless all who defend the True Faith! Your work will not go unnoticed.

[size=3][i]Note: Feel free to do an Internet search for Vatican II statistics to find a great deal of very interesting information. I also strongly recommend reading the message of Our Lady of La Salette for more telling information--from the Blessed Mother herself--about the future (current?) state of the Church. Seeking answers to contradictions or ambiguities in doctrine is not something to be condemned, it is the duty of all Catholics.[/i][/size]