Basilisa Marie Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1330564192' post='2394791'] I also find it offensive that you think that I, and everyone else, am deserving of hell and will arrive their upon my death unless I am included in your Church. [/quote] That's not true, Hasan. At least, any decent Catholic doesn't believe that anyone is deserving of hell and will go there unless he or she joins the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1330640324' post='2395088'] That's not true, Hasan. At least, any decent Catholic doesn't believe that anyone is deserving of hell and will go there unless he or she joins the Church. [/quote] We're all deserving of hell. That's why we need grace. And last time I checked extra ecclesiam nulla salus was still dogma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1330647164' post='2395123'] We're all deserving of hell. That's why we need grace. And last time I checked extra ecclesiam nulla salus was still dogma [/quote] And last time I checked, no one is condemned to hell for simply not being a Christian, and Lumen Gentium affirms the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics. But whatever. I was just trying to be kind, lol. Edited March 2, 2012 by Basilisa Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubertus Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1330647164' post='2395123'] We're all deserving of hell. That's why we need grace. And last time I checked extra ecclesiam nulla salus was still dogma [/quote] Christ does say that the only way into His Church (and to salvation) is through baptism, but have you not heard of baptism of desire? I thought this was a pretty basic understanding; but maybe that's only because I've memorized so much Baltimore Catechism in the past. lol Baptism of desire is the teaching that, basically, those who follow the Truth as they come to know it to the best of their abilities may be spiritually baptized by God's grace upon death, and thus saved. In other words, there's an exemption at death for people who never truly got the opportunity to come to know the Church and therefore never had the chance to enter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1330669717' post='2395257'] Christ does say that the only way into His Church (and to salvation) is through baptism, but have you not heard of baptism of desire? I thought this was a pretty basic understanding; but maybe that's only because I've memorized so much Baltimore Catechism in the past. lol Baptism of desire is the teaching that, basically, those who follow the Truth as they come to know it to the best of their abilities may be spiritually baptized by God's grace upon death, and thus saved. In other words, there's an exemption at death for people who never truly got the opportunity to come to know the Church and therefore never had the chance to enter it. [/quote] I know about Baptism of desire and it doesn't contradict what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1330666953' post='2395253'] And last time I checked, no one is condemned to hell for simply not being a Christian, and Lumen Gentium affirms the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics. But whatever. I was just trying to be kind, lol. [/quote] I apologize. I was grumpy and without sleep when I responded to you. I think people are condemned to hell for not being Christian. Non-Catholics can be saved but they can only be saved through membership in the Church. I think both you and Herbertus have given more liberal than merited views of this issue. Baptism by desire is, according to the Catechism, I believe, for Catechumens or other who actively want to be baptized. Invincible ignorance is for those who are not actively seeking the Church but meet a very high standard of having no knowledge of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 So basically, anything can be written without rebuke or condemnation just as long as it is written in jest. Gotcha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1330674533' post='2395267'] I apologize. I was grumpy and without sleep when I responded to you. I think people are condemned to hell for not being Christian. Non-Catholics can be saved but they can only be saved through membership in the Church. I think both you and Herbertus have given more liberal than merited views of this issue. Baptism by desire is, according to the Catechism, I believe, for Catechumens or other who actively want to be baptized. Invincible ignorance is for those who are not actively seeking the Church but meet a very high standard of having no knowledge of the Church. [/quote] It's important to remember that the Church is but the conduit. It's like the wire between the generator and the outlet. Most discussions seem to neglect culpability. Rejection of Christ and His church would have to be rejection within the context of that person's flawed understanding of the world. We are not gnostics. It stands to reason that since we do not believe in salvation through knowledge, we cannot believe in condemnation through ignorance, or through human limits on intelligence. A formal rejection of the Church would have to involve a correct concept of what one was rejecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nola Seminarian Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1330544890' post='2394573'] [url="http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2012/02/29/bozell-and-other-leaders-protest-vicious-anti-catholic-huffington-post-a"]http://newsbusters.o...ffington-post-a[/url] [/quote] May God bless our wayward brother, and may he be given the grace to repent of the vitriol he uttered against Holy Mother Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1330674533' post='2395267'] I apologize. I was grumpy and without sleep when I responded to you. I think people are condemned to hell for not being Christian. Non-Catholics can be saved but they can only be saved through membership in the Church. I think both you and Herbertus have given more liberal than merited views of this issue. Baptism by desire is, according to the Catechism, I believe, for Catechumens or other who actively want to be baptized. Invincible ignorance is for those who are not actively seeking the Church but meet a very high standard of having no knowledge of the Church. [/quote] No worries. Just as I believe that you have a far more conservative view than merited on this issue. We can't hold the doctrine of universal reconciliation to be true, but I personally believe that it should be our hope that it is, more or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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