What Is The Position Of Mary In Catholic Church? What Is The Place Of

[Louie]

I would like to know where you stand on concerning the nation of Israel as God's chosen people? What's your opinion on the covenant God made with them?

[Louie]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1330552518' post='2394648']
I don't understand this discussion of if Mary was sinless or not. It seems only logical that she was sinless. Where do you keep your most treasured possessions, in a defective vessel? Satan would have tested Mary to the extreme. Only a sinless woman could resist it.

Revelation 12
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=12&l=1#x"][1][/url] And a great sign appeared in heaven: [u]A woman[/u] clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=12&l=2#x"][2][/url] And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=12&l=3#x"][3][/url] And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=12&l=4#x"][4][/url] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the [b]dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.[/b] [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=12&l=5#x"][5][/url] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.
[/quote]

Verse 6 reads... Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Now explain to me when it happened that Mary fled to the wilderness after Christ was taken up to God and His throne.

[Louie]

Also verse 13 reads...Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.  14  But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.  15  So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.  16  But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.  17  And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Okay now explain how this woman who gave birth to the male Child can possibly be Mary being that this has not yet come to pass.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Louie

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330553024' post='2394650']
The one being from Adam who is sinless is Jesus - Pope Gelasius (492 a.d.)
“ It belongs alone to the immaculate lamb to have no sin at all.” (Gellasii papae dicta, vol. 4, col 1241, Paris, 1671)

Pope innocent the third (1216 a.d.) “She (Eve) was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin, she (Mary) was produced in sin, but she brought forth without sin.”
[/quote]
More explanation please. There seems a problem with symetry. Adam and Eve are produced without sin but bring forth sin. Mary is produced with sin but she brought forth without sin. Jesus however is sinless!

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330554281' post='2394674']
Also verse 13 reads...Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 [b]But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.[/b] 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 [b]But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[/b]

Okay now explain how this woman who gave birth to the male Child can possibly be Mary being that this has not yet come to pass.
[/quote]
I'm only a learner here but this seems to indicate that satan failed with Mary in what it does and the only thing satan does is tempt humans to sin. If this is not Mary then who? Doesn't the 12 stars refer to the 12 tribes or the 12 apostles? As far as the rest of revelation, when you fully understand it let the rest of the world know. What other woman could it be referring too? And we are not saying that Mary defeated satan only that she was sinless, possibly by her will [b]and Gods protection. [/b]Please explain what it was that satan was trying to do to Mary?

Edited February 29, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Louie]

I would like to express that I do believe that Mary was a greatly blessed woman. She was most highly favored among women and is deserving much honor and in no way do I mean to disrespect her. With that being said though I don't see a need to pray to her asking her to pray for me...I choose to keep my focus on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith and every prayer I pray is to The Father in the name of His Son. I know that is not how most of you may feel but that's where I stand on this issue and I know that my prayers are being heard by Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think.

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330556757' post='2394712']
I would like to express that I do believe that Mary was a greatly blessed woman. She was most highly favored among women and is deserving much honor and in no way do I mean to disrespect her. With that being said though I don't see a need to pray to her asking her to pray for me...I choose to keep my focus on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith and every prayer I pray is to The Father in the name of His Son. I know that is not how most of you may feel but that's where I stand on this issue and I know that my prayers are being heard by Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think.
[/quote]

So you never ask anyone to pray for you?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330556757' post='2394712']
I would like to express that I do believe that Mary was a greatly blessed woman. She was most highly favored among women and is deserving much honor and in no way do I mean to disrespect her. With that being said though I don't see a need to pray to her asking her to pray for me...I choose to keep my focus on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith and every prayer I pray is to The Father in the name of His Son. I know that is not how most of you may feel but that's where I stand on this issue and I know that my prayers are being heard by Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think.
[/quote]

We know our prayers to Our Lord are heard by Him-- NO DOUBT. But we ask our friends to pray for us, right? I certainly ask my husband to pray for me. I ask my homeschool group to pray for me. For us, this is no different. Because we believe in the communion of saints, and that all Christians are members of the Body of Christ and that death does not separate us from that, we believe that we can ask those in heaven to pray for us, too.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330556757' post='2394712']
I would like to express that I do believe that Mary was a greatly blessed woman. She was most highly favored among women and is deserving much honor and in no way do I mean to disrespect her. With that being said though I don't see a need to pray to her asking her to pray for me...I choose to keep my focus on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith and every prayer I pray is to The Father in the name of His Son. I know that is not how most of you may feel but that's where I stand on this issue and I know that my prayers are being heard by Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think.
[/quote]
I agree with you, I'm generally inclined to do the same. The way to the Father is through the son! However when I was sick I asked the priest and friends to pray for me and I'm sure it helped. It not only helps the recipient, but also those who pray. [i]'Wherever two or more are gathered there am I.'[/i] I also find the hail Mary very moving. A good son always loves and respects his mother.

[Louie]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1330555489' post='2394699']

More explanation please. There seems a problem with symetry. Adam and Eve are produced without sin but bring forth sin. Mary is produced with sin but she brought forth without sin. Jesus however is sinless!


I'm only a learner here but this seems to indicate that satan failed with Mary in what it does and the only thing satan does is tempt humans to sin. If this is not Mary then who? Doesn't the 12 stars refer to the 12 tribes or the 12 apostles? As far as the rest of revelation, when you fully understand it let the rest of the world know. What other woman could it be referring too? And we are not saying that Mary defeated satan only that she was sinless, possibly by her will [b]and Gods protection. [/b]Please explain what it was that satan was trying to do to Mary?
[/quote]

I don't believe this as being Mary but the nation of Israel...and since it's beginning and even to this day Satan is trying to destroy the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes...as seen in the dream that Joseph had in Genesis 37...during     the tribulation Israel will flee into the wilderness...Matthew 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,'* spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),  16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.  17  Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.  18  And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.  19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!  20  And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.  21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.  22  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 
    23  "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.  24  For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.  25  See, I have told you beforehand. 
    26  "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.  27  For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.  28  For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 
    29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Also in Luke 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330558006' post='2394723']
I don't believe this as being Mary but the nation of Israel...and since it's beginning and even to this day Satan is trying to destroy the nation of Israel. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes...as seen in the dream that Joseph had in Genesis 37...during the tribulation Israel will flee into the wilderness...Matthew 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,'* spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Also in Luke 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
[/quote]
That is most likely true, but often there are dualities in the meaning of scripture. I think it also refers to Mary!
Fr. Elio Capra our priest who writes RCIA material gave an interesting lecture on the structure of the Church. He said that it is generally considered that it is a pyramid, the Pope at the top and the laity at the bottom. But spiritually it is a circle, Jesus is in the centre and all the rest are around him. There is only one above each of us-Jesus. This brought to my mind another duality. Jesus said of Peter "On this rock I will build my Church!" Now Peter loved Jesus and had great faith so Jesus was also referring to all people of faith who love him. All Christians are the body of Christ and the rock apon which the Church stands.

[Louie]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1330556869' post='2394713']


So you never ask anyone to pray for you?
[/quote]
Yes I ask for prayer for those who are living here on earth but I don't ask for prayers to those who have passed on to the other side...those who are in heaven...also the prayers that are prayed are prayed to the Father and not to another person to pray for me.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Louie

[Selah]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330559596' post='2394737']
Yes I ask for prayer for those who are living here on earth but I don't ask for prayers to those who have passed on to the other side...those who are in heaven
[/quote]

Why is that?

[MIKolbe]

why not? is there a no prayer rule in Heaven? Doesn't the 'prayer of the righteous avail much'? Who is more 'righteous' than those IN Heaven?

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330559596' post='2394737']
Yes I ask for prayer for those who are living here on earth but I don't ask for prayers to those who have passed on to the other side...those who are in heaven
[/quote]

Why bother though if you can go straight to Jesus? You said it yourself, you don't need anyone else.

Edit: I'm actually quite interested in this because not a single person I have asked this to has been able to give me a straight response. Most either avoid the question or ignore it completely.

Edited March 1, 2012 by EmilyAnn

[Louie]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1330559862' post='2394742']


Why bother though if you can go straight to Jesus? You said it yourself, you don't need anyone else.
[/quote]

I pray to the Father not only for myself but for others...but I don't pray for someone to pray for me...I ask for prayer but don't pray to them for prayer.