Incest And Adam+Eve

[Selah]

[quote]Oh well if that's what you believe then that's what you believe...but I believe it as literally true and believe that Jesus was not one to speak of a person who never existed but was rather a fairy tale. What does your belief say about our Savior? How can you think that our Savior would speak of fairy tales? I couldn't and wouldn't cause then all that He said and done could be an would be questionable. Like I said He is not a God of confusion. Mixing fables and truth is confusion. Think about it. I'm sure your open for correction. [/quote]

Well, sure. But I never said they were fairy tales, remember. I don't think Christ spoke...or speaks...in fairytales either. Jonah, for instance; just because it may have never happened doesn't make the story any less true; that is, running from God is wrong...that is true, is it not? That is more important, that lesson, much more important, than if their was actually a real Jonah. Also remember, Christ spoke in parables, earthly stories with heavenly meanings. See where I'm going with this? What if Jonah is simply an earthly story with a deeper meaning?

I have a good example I'm mulling over in my head, kind of debating whether or not I should use it.

[quote]This does not make sense to me. After reading it a couple of times over. [/quote]

...what specifically?

[Louie]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1330743718' post='2395535']


Well, sure. But I never said they were fairy tales, remember. I don't think Christ spoke...or speaks...in fairytales either. Jonah, for instance; just because it may have never happened doesn't make the story any less true; that is, running from God is wrong...that is true, is it not? That is more important, that lesson, much more important, than if their was actually a real Jonah. Also remember, Christ spoke in parables, earthly stories with heavenly meanings. See where I'm going with this? What if Jonah is simply an earthly story with a deeper meaning?

I have a good example I'm mulling over in my head, kind of debating whether or not I should use it.



...what specifically?
[/quote]

I just think that the more I believe in the bible as truth literally the more I grow in knowledge of it. If I can only give the many examples of what I mean by this I would but at the moment I can't...will be a W Live at 7:30...tune in if you got the time

Grace and peace to you all!

[cmotherofpirl]

Louie if the psalm says " "With thy arm thou hast redeemed thy people the children of Jacob and of Joseph."
- Psalms 76,16" does this mean God has an arm?

[Hubertus]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330726685' post='2395430']
This gives me a great insight to understanding the teachings and beliefs of people on this site. Sad to think that some of you don't take the Word of God as truth inspired by the very breath of God. To think that God would mix tales with truth seems to contradict His own words that He is not a God of confusion and is a shame.
[/quote] We do take the Word of God as inspired truth. To say that we don't is a false accusation, especially since people have been trying to tell you that the Bible is not a science book, but a story of salvation.


[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330744166' post='2395539']
I just think that the more I believe in the bible as truth literally the more I grow in knowledge of it.
[/quote] If we were intended to take the Bible literally, we would all have already gouged out our eyes and cut off our arms, according to Matt 5:29-30.

Oh, and the universe would look like this:

[img]http://godlessons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/flat-earth1.gif[/img]

[Louie]

Ok then if you don't believe Adam and Eve as actual people in the bible what do you do with the genealogy of Jesus given in Luke where he lines His lineage all the way down to Adam.

The Genealogy of Jesus Christ
    23  Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,  24  the son of Matthat,* the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph,  25  the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai,  26  the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah,  27  the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri,  28  the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er,  29  the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi,  30  the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim,  31  the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David,  32  the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,  33  the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,  34  the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,  35  the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah,  36  the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,  37  the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan,  38  the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. 

If Adam was not a real person then neither would Jesus be real. There is a problem with that way of thinking. Also there was a firmament that once surrounded the earth that is how they lived so long...it would be like a giant green house...thus being where all the water came from during the flood and how we now have the oceans that be. There is an explanation for the many misunderstanding you may have concerning the stories in the bible. Like I said before when you just believe the bible as the inspired word of God and all of it to be truth...without doubting the things spoken of in it...the things that you question will be given an answer to...when you stop using your human reasoning and allow the spirit to be your teacher...Adam was a real person and so too was Jesus.

[Louie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1330744484' post='2395542']
Louie if the psalm says " "With thy arm thou hast redeemed thy people the children of Jacob and of Joseph."
- Psalms 76,16" does this mean God has an arm?
[/quote]

Did Jesus have arms?

[Louie]

[quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1330750999' post='2395580']
We do take the Word of God as inspired truth. To say that we don't is a false accusation, especially since people have been trying to tell you that the Bible is not a science book, but a story of salvation.


If we were intended to take the Bible literally, we would all have already gouged out our eyes and cut off our arms, according to Matt 5:29-30.

Oh, and the universe would look like this:

[img]http://godlessons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/flat-earth1.gif[/img]
[/quote]

I agree that the bible is a book about Gods love and His plan of salvation...but it also contains history and science within its contents...but that's not what I read it for...it's just amesome to know these things as you read and learn seeing the knowledge that is in it.

Just so you know I read the other post before I wrote in this and some of the responses shows alot of doubt and questions even so far out unbiblical thoughts...like aliens and such...I didn't come to this conclusion on my own but by reading what some were saying here.

As for cutting off you arms and gouging out your eyes...that's how serious Jesus was concerning sin...He was saying that if these parts of your body keeps you from getting to heaven it would be better not to have them...don't allow a body part to be the reason why you end up in hell...that's how serious we must take the end that sin will bring to us.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Louie

[Louie]

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

http://evidencebible.com/witnessingtool/scienceconfirmsthebible.shtml

Edited March 3, 2012 by Louie

[Archaeology cat]

Louie, there's no problem with the genealogy because we do believe they were real people. Genesis says Adam was formed from the dust; science tells us we evolved. Is there a contradiction? No! For even if you go with evolution, you get back to the point of dust. Rather amazing, in my opinion. And of course we do not hold to random, or atheistic, evolution, but theistic evolution here God is directing it.

I'm well aware of the historical elements of the Bible. I was an archaeologist, and know of various digs and discoveries confirming places and people. However, one still needs to look at the cultural context in order to see how it is meant to be taken. I do not mean one should just dismiss things that seem fantastic, for we know God can do anything, but that we need to understand how they themselves looked at things, too. To give a different example that's more from my field, we have records of the battle of Kadesh from Egypt. Now, if one didn't know how Egyptians viewed themselves, foreigners, and the role of the pharaoh, one might think it really was the glorious victory described, when in reality they barely got out alive. Now, this cannot provide an exact parallel, since it is a different culture and not Scripture, but can give an idea of what I mean by looking at the cultural context. Though even without that we can see truth, though again it needn't be literal truth.

It should also be noted tht the idea of history giving a completely factual, unbiased account of events is rather modern. Even Herodotus and Thucydides didn't conform to our idea of history, though they come closer. The ancient texts do, of course, give us historical knowledge, but if they themselves didn't conceive of history the way we do, why should we read the texts through the lens of our modern understanding of history? If I'm proven wrong, ok, for it doesn't affect my belief in the truth of the Scriptures.

God bless

[Papist]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330723462' post='2395412']
Don't mean to disappoint you but they do to some extent that is when you speak of truth and what is taught as truth.

As for you comment on the removal of the apocrypha books that's a whole different subject that has nothing to do with this. If you would like to talk about that then I suggest you start another forum and we can do that there. That's my opinion but from past experiences I think that would be best.
[/quote]

Hence, the truth of science, meaning the truth science reveals...not necessarily science some people teach.


[quote]The truth of the Bible and the truth of science should not contradict each other.[/quote]

[Selah]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330757383' post='2395595']
Did Jesus have arms?
[/quote]

God the Son, the Incarnate Word of God, has arms. God the Father, the Invisible, who has never become incarnate, does not have arms.


[quote]like aliens and such[/quote]

Extraterrestrial life is a possibility, and even the existence of other universes (multiverse). It only shows how vast and amazing things are and how infinite God is in His creation of all things. That said, I find such things irrelevant to Christianity as a whole, as the point of it it Christ. It's still fun to think about, though.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Selah

[Hubertus]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330756826' post='2395591']
Also there was a firmament that once surrounded the earth that is how they lived so long...it would be like a giant green house...thus being where all the water came from during the flood and how we now have the oceans that be.
[/quote] You skipped a couple of things, like how the sun and moon and stars (in other words, the entire universe) resided below this firmament, and how the earth was flat and had corners, and how it was sitting on pillars, etc...

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330757737' post='2395596']
Just so you know I read the other post before I wrote in this and some of the responses shows alot of doubt and questions even so far out unbiblical thoughts...like aliens and such...I didn't come to this conclusion on my own but by reading what some were saying here.[/quote] If you've been reading this thread, then you would know that we have been insisting that Adam was a real person, so for some reason I doubt you have read the whole thing, or that if you did you comprehended everything that you read.

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330757737' post='2395596']
As for cutting off you arms and gouging out your eyes...that's how serious Jesus was concerning sin...He was saying that if these parts of your body keeps you from getting to heaven it would be better not to have them...don't allow a body part to be the reason why you end up in hell...that's how serious we must take the end that sin will bring to us.
[/quote] So, how are you typing this, if you don't have arms? Or reading this if you don't have eyes? Since you're taking the Bible literally.

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330757737' post='2395596']
I agree that the bible is a book about Gods love and His plan of salvation...but it also contains history and science within its contents...but that's not what I read it for...it's just amesome to know these things as you read and learn seeing the knowledge that is in it.[/quote] Okay, as far as the Creation story goes, we can believe in it and that's perfectly fine, and shows a lot of faith even.. All we're saying is that, though there are necessary truths that lie within the [i]meaning[/i] of the story, we don't have to believe in its [i]literal[/i] appearance in order to be good Christians.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Hubertus

[Hubertus]

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
John 6:53

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, 28 l for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
John 26:26-28

Why don't you take that literally?

And for the record Louie, one of my best friends, who is Catholic, believes in Creation the way you seem to believe it. And although we'll argue about it sometimes, the minute details about Creation are not a pivotal basis for our Faith, so it's not a huge deal to either of us.

[Ice_nine]

[quote]this is actually Catholic teaching here-- Angels fell before humans fell, the fall of man brought sin and death (retroactively, and the main point is the spiritual death it brought) into the world AND made the whole world/cosmos fallen. ie, the fallenness of the world is anthropogenic, our sinfulness has indeed made the whole material universe fallen. the parts that are my crazy theorizing are when I talk about ensouled sibling hominid species and ensouled extraterrestrials, everything else I've said in this thread has been pretty much reiterating the teachings of the Church on these matters, in my own quirky way that explores a few interesting possibilities[/quote]

sorry, I actually knew that but, while I'm tangenting, why do we say man caused EVERYTHING to fall when the angels had already fallen? Does "everything"=everything in creation except the angels? And the consequence of the angels falling was relatively insular then, only really affecting themselves? Furthermore, man didn't bring physical death into the world, as animals/plants etc died before Man existed, so initially doesn't that seem like a design flaw? I assume there's an explanation somewheres. Help a sista out yo

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1330723860' post='2395417']
That is why such a question, "incest and Adam and Eve" doesn't mean much to me. I doubt that such a couple existed, but I do believe in the fall. Genesis is true, but it is not literally true.
[/quote]

This is what I thought, until as aloysius pointed out, monogenism is key to the Catholic faith. He/she (sorry can't remember which gender you are ) threw out some pretty rad theories tho. I understand much of Genesis is symbolic and poetic and all that, but the idea of man having two parents seems to be a pretty big deal.