Incest And Adam+Eve

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1330535727' post='2394502']
Infants as part of households were baptised with everyone else, it was not just a later addition.
[/quote]
That's what I wrote, children were baptised if present with family because there was no reason not to. Not because it was practise to baptise children. That came later in fear of the invention of limbo. Which is not in the doctrine of the Church.

[Hubertus]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1330472268' post='2394256']
if we ever find evidence of extraterrestrials, we might have to question what exactly that uniqueness of the human race entails, because there's no way we could ever treat other rational ensouled creatures as somehow "lesser" beings morally IMO.
[/quote] I agree. And a tangential comment, science fictions like Star Wars, Star Trek, Mass Effect, etc. always seem to display other races as similarly inclined to evil like man, which I suppose is more of an atheistic attitude. In the context of these storylines, one would have to either instantly assume that there is "no God," or that there's some kind of underlying salvation story for each race that is never spoken of (that I've seen - I know it's that way with Mass Effect, but I'm not too familiar with the stories behind Star Wars or Star Trek).

[InPersonaChriste]

No one knows exactly how humanity started. I think to keep it simple in the Bible they decided to represent the first of Mankind with one man and one women. But who knows their could have been a group of many men and women. We can't fully understand what God did here because we aren't Him.

[Aloysius]

Other species being fallen could actually be a result of the fall of man, since all of creation was made fallen because of our fall, so I don't think I'd exactly expect aliens to have any sort of original innocence or anything. but their lack of innocence needn't indicate a separate fall for each species and a seperate salvation plan for each species, we view the fall of mankind as something that made the whole cosmos fall, and the incarnation of Christ was to redeem all of material creation. so if there is an extraterrestrial with a rational immortal soul, it is Christ's redemption that would lift them up out of their fallen nature as it renews all of the fallen physical cosmos.

this doesn't mean that faith or baptism is required of them at all; it is the sons of Adam who bear original sin and who thus must be redeemed by the cleansing of baptism and the blood of Christ, the fallen nature of an extraterrestrial would not be bourn by them (I'm avoiding the term "guilt" because of a certain Eastern sensibility I have, but that's kind of what I'm trying to say, it would only be a fallen nature and not a "guilt" in a manner of speaking, something like anything they did contrary to nature would not necessarily have any applicable culpability)... we don't know what their destiny would be in the grand scheme of eternity, whether they are destined for the Beatific Vision or destined for some other eternal happiness in keeping with their nature as they were created. a flower was not created for the Beatific Vision, obviously because it does not have a rational soul; but a different type of rational soul may have been created for a different kind of rational being... applicable to sibling hominid species or extraterrestrials.

InPersonaChristi, as I've explained above (and as Pius XII made clear in Humanari Generis), it is actually an important central part of our faith to truly believe in two individual first parents... but of course, this is not important on the basis of a biological reality, which is why the dissonance with the evolutionary history is not so much a problem (the only biological reason that is important is the anti-racist reason, that all human beings are biological one family), it is important on the basis of spiritual realities because of the story of salvation history. it is absolutely a central tenent of our faith that sin entered the world through one man and one woman, and that one woman's "Fiat" brought into the world the one Man through which the world could come to redemption.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Aloysius

[Mark of the Cross]

The Bible mentions five things that make the angels in Heaven rejoice. The first was when God said, “Let there be light.” ([b]Job 38:7[/b]) The second was on the night of the Lord’s birth. ([b]Luke 2:13-14[/b]) The third is whenever a sinner gives His heart to the Lord. ([b]Luke 15:7,10[/b]) The 4th is when the Church arrives in Heaven. ([b]Rev. 5:11-12[/b]) And the fifth is when the Lord defeats His enemies on Earth and returns to reign. ([b]Rev. 19:6-7[/b])
Who are angels in 'heaven' (?) that existed from when God said "let their be light" to the end times.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

Interesting read here
[url="http://orthodoxcatholicnew.tripod.com/id6.html"]The real meaning of the story of Adam and Eve.[/url]

[Aloysius]

I don't really have time to go through your whole link, Mark, but I would warn you that it appears to be saturated in too many heresies to count, and looking at the description of this Tripod site it looks to be some little gnostic new agey trippy heretical dude. Just skimmed it, but I saw sooo much misinformation and outright heresy.

as for your other post, angels were created before humans were created. angels were given their choice before Adam and Eve were given their choice, and fell from grace before the race of man was created. there were already angels in heaven and angels in hell when the human race was created, and Satan indeed had a hand in tempting us to make the wrong decision in Eden.

[Ice_nine]

Aloysius, how can we say all of creation was not fallen before the fall of mankind, if indeed a portion of angels were already fallen before man existed? In your crazy and interesting theorizing, this appears to be a contradiction. Maybe it's not but just throwin it out there.

[Aloysius]

I think in some places I said the fall of man extended to the "cosmos" and in other places I said "creation"... "cosmos" would be a more accurate term there. the whole material world was affected by the fall of man, including the earth and the plants and the animals; and, in theory, any extraterrestrial life that may exist whether it has a rational or non-rational spirit.

so yes, there was the fall of the angels before the fall of man, but it was the fall of man that made the whole "world" fallen.

btw, this is actually Catholic teaching here-- Angels fell before humans fell, the fall of man brought sin and death (retroactively, and the main point is the spiritual death it brought) into the world AND made the whole world/cosmos fallen. ie, the fallenness of the world is anthropogenic, our sinfulness has indeed made the whole material universe fallen. the parts that are my crazy theorizing are when I talk about ensouled sibling hominid species and ensouled extraterrestrials, everything else I've said in this thread has been pretty much reiterating the teachings of the Church on these matters, in my own quirky way that explores a few interesting possibilities

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1330646289' post='2395115']
I think in some places I said the fall of man extended to the "cosmos" and in other places I said "creation"... "cosmos" would be a more accurate term there. the whole material world was affected by the fall of man, including the earth and the plants and the animals; and, in theory, any extraterrestrial life that may exist whether it has a rational or non-rational spirit.

so yes, there was the fall of the angels before the fall of man, but it was the fall of man that made the whole "world" fallen.

btw, this is actually Catholic teaching here-- Angels fell before humans fell, the fall of man brought sin and death (retroactively, and the main point is the spiritual death it brought) into the world AND made the whole world/cosmos fallen. ie, the fallenness of the world is anthropogenic, our sinfulness has indeed made the whole material universe fallen. the parts that are my crazy theorizing are when I talk about ensouled sibling hominid species and ensouled extraterrestrials, everything else I've said in this thread has been pretty much reiterating the teachings of the Church on these matters, in my own quirky way that explores a few interesting possibilities
[/quote]
But all of this fallen stuff makes it sound as though God has been having lots of failures in what he intended to achieve. Don't we need something there about these things being a necessary occurance as part of Gods ultimate plan?

With regards to the link, I just found it interesting. Of course no value to its accuracy could be placed because such writings are obviously speculation, but I find it helps me with understanding the reasons of Church teachings to investigate alternatives. And I have to admit that there are some major Church teachings that I cannot come to terms with. Don't worry I always pray that the Holy Spirit guide and protect me in my investigations.

[Groo the Wanderer]

the question is #27 on my list to ask God when I meet Him. where the dinosaurs went is #38. are there space aliens is #122


i really do have a list. that way i don't have to worry about the answer right now. kind of a divine parking lot

[Hubertus]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1330656538' post='2395206']
the question is #27 on my list to ask God when I meet Him. where the dinosaurs went is #38. are there space aliens is #122


i really do have a list. that way i don't have to worry about the answer right now. kind of a divine parking lot
[/quote] I hope you've memorized it, 'cause, you know.. Probably can't take the paper with you.


[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1330646289' post='2395115']
btw, this is actually Catholic teaching here-- Angels fell before humans fell, the fall of man brought sin and death (retroactively, and the main point is the spiritual death it brought) into the world AND made the whole world/cosmos fallen. ie, the fallenness of the world is anthropogenic, our sinfulness has indeed made the whole material universe fallen. the parts that are my crazy theorizing are when I talk about ensouled sibling hominid species and ensouled extraterrestrials, everything else I've said in this thread has been pretty much reiterating the teachings of the Church on these matters, in my own quirky way that explores a few interesting possibilities
[/quote] So did you just become familiar enough with Church teaching on the matter and then come up with all this (about the ensouled beings and such) on your own? Or did you draw from certain resources on the matter, and do you know of any resources that I might benefit from? I'm thinking about giving a presentation on Creation, Evolution, and Humani generis, so I thought it would be razzle dazzle to present some stuff like this to the audience to help them know that they don't have to compromise their Faith in order to accept scientific discoveries, or vice versa.

[Aloysius]

the idea of ensouled "sibling species" hominids is my own, to my knowledge, I haven't seen it expressed anywhere else at least, so it's just my own idea after becoming familiar with Church teachings... maybe I should write a book, it'd be something to do with my anthropology degree haha... I had an idea about a fictional work with a character who was an ensouled hominid who was not of the race of man, that'd be pretty razzzle dazzzle I think.

Mark, the fallenness of the world isn't a defect in God's plan, it's perfectly in line with God's plan for mankind's free will. God made man with free will and He made our free will hugely significant to the fate of the whole cosmos; there's different ideas about soteriology and eschatology in terms of destiny and free will, but I go with the explanation (I think it may have been Anselm but don't quote me on this, I'm not very confident, but someone has said something to the following effect) that God always intended to bring the whole universe to perfection through the incarnation of Christ through which He would life the pinnacle of creation--mankind--into union with Him. if we had not fallen, the process would have been quicker, but God's plan included the possibility that we would fall and it's all still going perfectly according to plan--God is bringing the universe towards perfection. nothing in the universe is evil, but it is not perfect yet--it is in the midst of a perfect plan

[Hubertus]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1330669897' post='2395258']
the idea of ensouled "sibling species" hominids is my own, to my knowledge, I haven't seen it expressed anywhere else at least, so it's just my own idea after becoming familiar with Church teachings... maybe I should write a book, it'd be something to do with my anthropology degree haha... I had an idea about a fictional work with a character who was an ensouled hominid who was not of the race of man, that'd be pretty razzzle dazzzle I think.[/quote] You should! I would buy it.

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1330669897' post='2395258']
if we had not fallen, the process would have been quicker, but God's plan included the possibility that we would fall and it's all still going perfectly according to plan--God is bringing the universe towards perfection. nothing in the universe is evil, but it is not perfect yet--it is in the midst of a perfect plan
[/quote] To go with what you're saying, in his book [i]Perelandra[/i], CS Lewis writes about the Second Coming:

[quote]'I do not call it the beginning,' said Tor the King. 'It is but the wiping out of a false start in order that the world may then begin. As when a man lies down to sleep, if he finds a twisted root under his shoulder he will change his place - and after that his real sleep begins. Or as a man setting foot on an island, may make a false step. He steadies himself and after that his journey begins. You would not call that steadying of himself a last thing?'[/quote]

[Louie]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/who-was-cains-wife