thessalonian Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Now that the government is in the business of forcing companies to give away products that are deemed "rights" it seems like grocery stores should be forced to give food away to people who need a meal LONG BEFORE a company should be forced to provide a perfectly healthy woman a pill for something that she is going to do that is somehow deemed unhealthy by the anti-baby anti-life people of the world. Pregancy is not a sign of an unhealthy woman. Just thinking out loud here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Sorry - double thread. Ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 And beer. I drink beer for medicinal purposes...............to quench my thirst. [img]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/drink/beer-chugger.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 So I guess this is my cue that this was just a political stunt and many of the people expressing outrage were just looking for something that Obama did that they can beesh about. The compromise is fair. Yes. You will have to pay into a company that will provide contraception but you will not be directly purchasing these products for your employees. That is fair. If you can't compromise then you're going to get ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubertus Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1329506547' post='2388582'] So I guess this is my cue that this was just a political stunt and many of the people expressing outrage were just looking for something that Obama did that they can beesh about. The compromise is fair. Yes. You will have to pay into a company that will provide contraception but you will not be directly purchasing these products for your employees. That is fair. If you can't compromise then you're going to get ignored. [/quote] Is it fair to the insurance company, who is being forced to provide it "for free?" Edited February 17, 2012 by Hubertus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Is the company still required to have contraception available on their benefits package(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1329506547' post='2388582'] So I guess this is my cue that this was just a political stunt and many of the people expressing outrage were just looking for something that Obama did that they can beesh about. The compromise is fair. Yes. You will have to pay into a company that will provide contraception but you will not be directly purchasing these products for your employees. That is fair. If you can't compromise then you're going to get ignored. [/quote] Ah yes, good old compromise. He who stands for nothing will fall for anything. There are some issues which do not allow for compromise. This is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1329506547' post='2388582'] So I guess this is my cue that this was just a political stunt and many of the people expressing outrage were just looking for something that Obama did that they can beesh about. The compromise is fair. Yes. You will have to pay into a company that will provide contraception but you will not be directly purchasing these products for your employees. That is fair. If you can't compromise then you're going to get ignored. [/quote] By the way, you are nieve if you think the insurance companies are just going to eat the costs. Their rates will go up but they will give a different reason. Or maybe you believe in free lunches. Edited February 17, 2012 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 random thoughts clearly stolen from other discussions which I take no credit for:: 1. you are a Catholic institution, your employee tells you that they are going to pay for an abortion with their next pay check... do you not pay them? 2. Another example, similar to the original post was, a Kosher grocery store being compelled to give out free bacon... and then offering the compromise that they can pay some gentile to provide the bacon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1329507776' post='2388597'] 2. Another example, similar to the original post was, a Kosher grocery store being compelled to give out free bacon... and then offering the compromise that they can pay some gentile to provide the bacon [/quote] No. However that Kosher grocery store cannot refuse to pay insurance that would cover a procedure using a pig heart in a transplant. You don't get to control your employees just because you have a religious affiliation. Being a kosher grocery store is different from being a synagogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 [img]http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/405968_10150545948183061_122892243060_8866185_818239755_n.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hasan, you have never responded to my points in other threads about how birth control is not at all a necessity, and about how it's cheap enough that people should be able to purchase it FOR THEMSELVES. If the government is going to create a mandated healthcare program, it should ONLY mandate the stuff that is MEDICALLY NECESSARY. birth control is a lifestyle choice, and the most expensive kind costs about $30/month. the cheapest kind is natural family planning and/or condoms. it's not similar to a kosher store refusing to cover pig heart valves (and btw I know that's just a point you're making, but I don't think orthodox jews have problems with using pig heart valves), it's similar to a kosher store refusing to offer bacon. the pig heart valve is medically necessary, life saving medicine. the bacon is a choice of some people who happen to enjoy eating it. contraceptives are a choice of some people who don't want to have to use condoms or learn NFP, and it'll cost them a whopping $30/month to cover that choice! that's less than a lot of cable plans! birth control pills are a luxury, not a necessity, and that's what's missing from all of your analyses of this issue, Hasan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 you know what would be a good compromise? requiring the Church's insurances to pay for birth control pills when they are proscribed for a medical condition only, not when they are proscribed as birth control pills. see what I did there? require medically necessary pills (though there are almost always alternatives to the pill for these kinds of issues), don't require medically superfluous pills. like requiring insurance to pay for plastic surgery when someone has severe facial burns but not requiring insurance to pay for plastic surgery because they want to look more attractive. and your assertion that the bishops were just looking for something to get mad at Obama about is dead wrong. the bishops SUPPORTED the healthcare mandate. they're not having a big TEA party accusing it of being unconstitutional and mad about it raising their taxes, they would be singing its praises everywhere if it just allowed for conscience exemptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1329508154' post='2388601'] No. However that Kosher grocery store cannot refuse to pay insurance that would cover a procedure using a pig heart in a transplant. You don't get to control your employees just because you have a religious affiliation. Being a kosher grocery store is different from being a synagogue. [/quote] i just don't understand that part... you are not "controlling" them... they can go out and get birth control on their own and not be fired. and btw, I could be wrong but I though that private institutions WERE able to fire people for acting inappropriately. (ex. a guy gets fired for making statments that were not PC) I am a bit confused though on how much different it is to pay an insurance company to buy the birth control VS pay the employee who will buy the birth control.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1329508729' post='2388606'] Hasan, you have never responded to my points in other threads about how birth control is not at all a necessity, and about how it's cheap enough that people should be able to purchase it FOR THEMSELVES.[/QUOTE] I apologize. I was suspended. Do you remember which thread that was? [QUOTE]If the government is going to create a mandated healthcare program, it should ONLY mandate the stuff that is MEDICALLY NECESSARY. birth control is a lifestyle choice, and the most expensive kind costs about $30/month. the cheapest kind is natural family planning and/or condoms.[/QUOTE] Ok. Well unfortunately most of the country feels differently and you live in a republic rather than a Catholic theocracy. Birth Control is a really important medical product for most Americans who don't have the same sexual ethics as the Pope. You all can preach that a sex life really isn't that important and if you must then there's always the rhythm method but most people don't buy that. [QUOTE]it's not similar to a kosher store refusing to cover pig heart valves (and btw I know that's just a point you're making, but I don't think orthodox jews have problems with using pig heart valves), it's similar to a kosher store refusing to offer bacon. the pig heart valve is medically necessary, life saving medicine. the bacon is a choice of some people who happen to enjoy eating it. contraceptives are a choice of some people who don't want to have to use condoms or learn NFP, and it'll cost them a whopping $30/month to cover that choice! that's less than a lot of cable plans![/QUOTE] First of all I should say that you're right. And Orthodox Jews (and Muslims) at least tend to say that saving a human life is the most important thing. Deciding not to offer a product is different than trying to impose your religious beliefs on your employees. That isn't a problem in a synagogue. But it is a problem if you want to open a business and impose people with different views. [QUOTE]birth control pills are a luxury, not a necessity, and that's what's missing from all of your analyses of this issue, Hasan. [/quote] Depends on what you consider a luxury. Birth Control is very good for fighting poverty. It's more of a luxury in wealthy nations where women have stronger legal rights. Most people don't share your views on sex. And as long as that happens you all are going to push this issue too far and people are going to shift from seeing this as a legitimate protest against an arguable government overreach (pre compromise) to seeing this as a back door attempt to attack what you all see as illicit sexual practices (post compromise) Edited February 17, 2012 by Hasan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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