What's The Big Deal? Evolution

[Laudate_Dominum]

This is a sentiment that I can relate to at times:

How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way." - C. Sagan, [i]Pale Blue Dot[/i]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote]
Did man evolve from apes, then what did apes evolve from?
[/quote]
Honda and Toyota cars both have an engine and four wheels. Their blue prints are very much the same. This does not mean that one evolved from the other, it's the common function that brought about the similarity. Both humans and apes have similar DNA because, well, they are very much alike. But the similar DNA does not prove one evolved from the other, only that they are similiar. Logical.

[quote name='blacksheep' timestamp='1329240828' post='2386936']
Also what else could "image of God" mean? What seperates us from the animals? I think it's our ability to love, show compassion, solve problems, and unyeilding curiosity that really shows the beauty of God.

[/quote]
Animals love, show compassion, solve problems and are curious. Free choice maybe! To know both Good and evil? To create?

Aside
I always consider caves, mountains, clouds etc to be Gods artwork. He didn't use modelling clay or paint, he created chemistry and physics and let it do whatever.
Throughout the earths history mass extinctions have occured and then new species have appeared. I find it difficult to believe that natural selection can account for such complex evolution. Like how does a creature survive while it's evolving some feature vital to its survival? Either God does perform regular miracles or theres a lot more to evolution than we know.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Macchester' timestamp='1329322316' post='2387462']
Dogs.
[/quote]
I do not annoy the neighbours by barking all night. But I do have this compulsion to bite yer bum.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1329326879' post='2387511']
This is a sentiment that I can relate to at times:

How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way." - C. Sagan, [i]Pale Blue Dot[/i]
[/quote]

Idk, I used to be threatened by science because I thought that, as Fr. Barron says "God is merely one amongst many causes," and therefore God was at odds with physics and nature. And if God couldn't merely trump the forces of a nature through brute force, then my idea of God was threatened and I would recoil.

Does that make sense? I think that might be a problem for some fundamentalist folk.

Now I look at the amazing complexity and our evolution of understanding of the physical world and see the divine intelligence behind it, which is razzle dazzle.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1329348385' post='2387695']
Idk, I used to be threatened by science because I thought that, as Fr. Barron says "God is merely one amongst many causes," and therefore God was at odds with physics and nature. And if God couldn't merely trump the forces of a nature through brute force, then my idea of God was threatened and I would recoil.

Does that make sense? I think that might be a problem for some fundamentalist folk.

Now I look at the amazing complexity and our evolution of understanding of the physical world and see the divine intelligence behind it, which is razzle dazzle.
[/quote]
I love Fr Barron and his videos are teh bestus, but he's a little off on some things IMO.

Even Hawking had to invent a multitude of universes so that he could explain ours without God. To me, by this Instead of proving atheism he proved God.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1329357467' post='2387789']
I love Fr Barron and his videos are teh bestus, but he's a little off on some things IMO.
[/quote]

like what things pertaining to this topic?

[Selah]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1329323525' post='2387475']


It wasn't a serious question.
[/quote]

Well nao i feelz sillehz

[Papist]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1329359308' post='2387804']
Well nao i feelz sillehz
[/quote]

After a good cry and a hug from the wife, I'm good.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1329358045' post='2387793']
like what things pertaining to this topic?
[/quote]
Maybe I misunderstood what you were conveying! I thought you had seen something pertaining to this thread such as Fr Barron disassociating science to God. My problem was similar, but reverse with his video of tsunami, bushfires and hurricanes being the Holy Spirit chastising people. In a sense he was correct in that God created science and because of us he let go of the reins and as a consequence science left to itself has often been harsh on us bringing about much suffering. But I disagree with the way he saw it as chastisement. In the parable of the prodigal son, the father could have said no to the son, but could see the son would not be content until he tasted life by his own selfish desires. The father did not will hardship on the son, in fact I imagine he would have been happy if the son were successful such as all of us are. He certainly would have been unhappy if the son had met his death. No I cannot agree that the Holy Spirit sent a tsunami to Japan to chastise its people. You can't chastise people by killing them! In East Timor I won't mention human rights abuses because they were man made, but the people undergo extreme poverty and hardship for natural reasons as well. Is the Holy Spirit chastising these people? Children who are very beautiful physically and spiritually and traditional Catholics. While here in Australia with greed and creeping atheism all we've had is a few minor floods, but over all a relative easy life compared to the rest of the world. ATM! If it's chastisement then it's disproportionately inflicted on people. I would imagine the harder life for the devout being the devil trying to deter them from their love of God. But Jesus said. "Come to me those of you who are heavily laden."

Edited February 16, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1329428124' post='2388109']

Maybe I misunderstood what you were conveying! I thought you had seen something pertaining to this thread such as Fr Barron disassociating science to God. My problem was similar, but reverse with his video of tsunami, bushfires and hurricanes being the Holy Spirit chastising people. In a sense he was correct in that God created science and because of us he let go of the reins and as a consequence science left to itself has often been harsh on us bringing about much suffering. But I disagree with the way he saw it as chastisement. In the parable of the prodigal son, the father could have said no to the son, but could see the son would not be content until he tasted life by his own selfish desires. The father did not will hardship on the son, in fact I imagine he would have been happy if the son were successful such as all of us are. He certainly would have been unhappy if the son had met his death. No I cannot agree that the Holy Spirit sent a tsunami to Japan to chastise its people. You can't chastise people by killing them! In East Timor I won't mention human rights abuses because they were man made, but the people undergo extreme poverty and hardship for natural reasons as well. Is the Holy Spirit chastising these people? Children who are very beautiful physically and spiritually and traditional Catholics. While here in Australia with greed and creeping atheism all we've had is a few minor floods, but over all a relative easy life compared to the rest of the world. ATM! If it's chastisement then it's disproportionately inflicted on people. I would imagine the harder life for the devout being the devil trying to deter them from their love of God. But Jesus said. "Come to me those of you who are heavily laden."
[/quote]

I just read the passage in Job, where Job rebukes his friend--sort of--for erroneously thinking that suffering is only for chastisement.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1329428994' post='2388114']
I just read the passage in Job, where Job rebukes his friend--sort of--for erroneously thinking that suffering is only for chastisement.
[/quote]
Job is a beautiful parable of how our suffering is more about satans power on earth. It's only outdone by the story of how God so loved the world that he came as man to suffer and die like us to show his love for us. If there were another way besides suffering and death I'm sure he would have chosen it?
[i]11 Crucifixion[/i]
[i]Jesus speaks- I could have called a legion of angels to save me from this agonising end, but how else could I show my love for you? How could I ask you to endure your pain if I had avoaded mine? And so pain explodes into my brain as nails pierce my hands and feet. Then I thirst and suffer until I question my Fathers love.[/i]
[i]My reply- I look at you and think, is my soul worth this much? How you must love me! How can I show my love in return?[/i]
[i]......I must accept whatever sickness, torment or agony is yet to come. To every cross I touch my lips that lets me be with you, a co-redeemer of humanity![/i]

Edited February 16, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Hubertus]

But what about all the other punishment that God carries out on entire populations for their being sinful (in Genesis, for example)? Does He not do that anymore?

And Mark, do you support the theory that man evolved from a lesser form of life? It seems like everyone else here does, but I'm wanting to see the other side of the argument.

[Papist]

Need to remember that evolution only pertains to our physical nature, not our spiritual nature.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1329492011' post='2388455']
But what about all the other punishment that God carries out on entire populations for their being sinful (in Genesis, for example)? Does He not do that anymore?
[/quote]

People often use Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of this but then
[i][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=31#x"][31][/url] Seeing, saith he, I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord. What if twenty be found there? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=32#x"][32][/url] I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if ten should be found there? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=33#x"][33][/url] And the Lord departed, after he had left speaking to Abraham: and Abraham returned to his place.[/i]
As people have said earlier in the thread the Bible, particularly the OT, is not a literal or historical instrument. Even the story of the great flood would need some bulk miracles from God to fix numerous physical impossibilities which would make the whole operation senseless. He may as well have just wiped the earth and recreated the animals. The OT 'depicts' a very unpleasant God, whereas the NT depicts its polar opposite. The God of the NT is the God that I know and love. Jesus said "I came not to destroy the law or the prophets" In the case of adultery for example, he didn't change the law he confirmed that it was a sin. But he dealt with it in a much different way. The only possible explanation I can come up with for the Biblical contradictions is that God is giving us a choice on how we want to see him. Do you want to see a vengeful God or a loving one?




[quote]And Mark, do you support the theory that man evolved from a lesser form of life? It seems like everyone else here does, but I'm wanting to see the other side of the argument.[/quote]
Most creatures have a lot in common. The physical construct of a rat is much the same as a human. This seems to indicate a common source, but I would say that's more likely to be God than evolving from a common organism. The nasty grotesque creatures probably come about through the Genesis story of the garden 'it will grow thistles and thorns for you'. Evolution seems very sound, but has numerous holes, either God performs many miracles along the way or there is a complex mechanism that we don't know about.
Just postulating and maybe sticking my neck out, but that's all I can say in reply.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1329511937' post='2388639']
People often use Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of this but then
[i][url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=31#x"][31][/url] Seeing, saith he, I have once begun, I will speak to my Lord. What if twenty be found there? He said: I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=32#x"][32][/url] I beseech thee, saith he, be not angry, Lord, if I speak yet once more: What if ten should be found there? And he said: I will not destroy it for the sake of ten. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=18&l=33#x"][33][/url] And the Lord departed, after he had left speaking to Abraham: and Abraham returned to his place.[/i]
As people have said earlier in the thread the Bible, particularly the OT, is not a literal or historical instrument. Even the story of the great flood would need some bulk miracles from God to fix numerous physical impossibilities which would make the whole operation senseless. He may as well have just wiped the earth and recreated the animals. The OT 'depicts' a very unpleasant God, whereas the NT depicts its polar opposite. The God of the NT is the God that I know and love. Jesus said "I came not to destroy the law or the prophets" In the case of adultery for example, he didn't change the law he confirmed that it was a sin. But he dealt with it in a much different way. The only possible explanation I can come up with for the Biblical contradictions is that God is giving us a choice on how we want to see him. Do you want to see a vengeful God or a loving one?
[/quote]
I am limited to one finger typing, so this short. The is much literal history in the old testament written from a theological viewpoint. Kindly consider the times and the culture and experiences the sacred writers had to work with and that ours is a PATIENT God.