Liberal And Catholic?

[Lil Red]

[right]just wanna say, I'm really proud of the great and charitable posts in this thread, especially those by Cmom, Archaeology cat, eagle eye and Maggie

[/right]

[right]especially this part of Maggie's:[/right]
[right][quote]The latter approach is called forming your conscience. It involves sincere prayer, reading, studying, even fasting. It requires a humble heart, openness to the Holy Spirit and a true desire to believe and do the right thing, even if it means changing your mind.[/quote][/right]

[right] [/right]

[Hey_Pauly]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I appreciate the candor.

[cmotherofpirl]

Choosing a church is not like choosing a car: you don't shop for the one that best "fit" your current feelings. Feelings are transitory and ephemeral in nature.
The question you must ask yourself is "IS IT TRUE"? Did Jesus Christ found the Catholic Church 2000 some years ago?
If you believe He is God and this is the reality - the ground of our existence - then you take up your cross and follow Him. Your particular cross most likely would in the beginning, be to take on faith that the Church is right on these particular issues, and possibly many others, to accept the fact she does know what she is talking about. Then you start asking for explanations like it all depends on your studying, and praying because it all depends on your receptiveness and the Holy Spirit nudging you ever so gently in the right direction. It is work, and you must constantly guard against the ever so human failing that we are in some way superior to all those gone before us, and we alone understand the world. That is chronological bigotry at its finest.
Some things you may never understand completely, but seriously, do ya have to know how a jet engine works before you take a plane trip?

[Hey_Pauly]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1329193694' post='2386751']
Choosing a church is not like choosing a car: you don't shop for the one that best "fit" your current feelings. Feelings are transitory and ephemeral in nature.
The question you must ask yourself is "IS IT TRUE"? Did Jesus Christ found the Catholic Church 2000 some years ago?
If you believe He is God and this is the reality - the ground of our existence - then you take up your cross and follow Him. Your particular cross most likely would in the beginning, be to take on faith that the Church is right on these particular issues, and possibly many others, to accept the fact she does know what she is talking about. Then you start asking for explanations like it all depends on your studying, and praying because it all depends on your receptiveness and the Holy Spirit nudging you ever so gently in the right direction. It is work, and you must constantly guard against the ever so human failing that we are in some way superior to all those gone before us, and we alone understand the world. That is chronological bigotry at its finest.
Some things you may never understand completely, but seriously, do ya have to know how a jet engine works before you take a plane trip?
[/quote]

cmotherofpirl,

Thank you for the excellent post.
I'm not searching for a church that fits my feelings per ce. It is more about my conscience and me finding a way to worship God in a manner that is true to myself. After posting in this forum and Catholic Answers I am becoming increasingly convinced that the Catholic Church may not be the place for me to do that. This is something that makes me a little sad because I truly do love the beauty of the liturgy. I am just unable to divorce myself from the person that I believe God has created me to be.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Hey_Pauly' timestamp='1329360205' post='2387813']
cmotherofpirl,

Thank you for the excellent post.
I'm not searching for a church that fits my feelings per ce. It is more about my conscience and me finding a way to worship God in a manner that is true to myself. After posting in this forum and Catholic Answers I am becoming increasingly convinced that the Catholic Church may not be the place for me to do that. This is something that makes me a little sad because I truly do love the beauty of the liturgy. I am just unable to divorce myself from the person that I believe God has created me to be.
[/quote]

Do you think that God is done creating you? Or that He may be calling you to grow?

Beware of choosing a religion that makes you comfortable or affirms you in all your beliefs. The Gospel should challenge you and make you uncomfortable, not be a "perfect fit."

Even Catholics do this sometimes (conservatives go to a conservative parish, liberals go to a liberal parish). If you are going to a church just to hear what you want to hear , it's a waste of time.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1329362335' post='2387822']
Do you think that God is done creating you? Or that He may be calling you to grow?

Beware of choosing a religion that makes you comfortable or affirms you in all your beliefs. The Gospel should challenge you and make you uncomfortable, not be a "perfect fit."

Even Catholics do this sometimes (conservatives go to a conservative parish, liberals go to a liberal parish). If you are going to a church just to hear what you want to hear , it's a waste of time.
[/quote]
Yes.

In a culture where we have hundreds of option in nearly ever facet of life, we are trained to seek out things which suit us. We have to be particularly careful not to apply this to our religious choices, as well.
Ask yourself: should you be searching for a Church that you like or that makes you feel good or that fits or et cetera, or should you be searching for the truth?

Edited February 16, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[Seven77]

It is because I want to be true to myself that I am Catholic… I'm Catholic because I love Truth. Truth is not subjective or relative; it is outside of myself and is totally immutable, symphonic, and beautiful--something worth dying for precisely because it is worth living for. You were made for it, it's your optimal operating system.

Truth can indeed hurt you-- to say otherwise would be a lie. To run away from it would be to lie to yourself.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1329092940' post='2386105']
I'm a liberal in that I believe in social justice. You can't help people by allowing stronger people to kill more vulnerable people. You don't help people by allowing them to live lives that harm them and others. We certainly don't help people by lying to them about their bodies and the things destructive people want them to put in their bodies.
[/quote]
All the things you "can't" and "don't" are the issues liberals have been advocating since at least the 20th century.

Conservatives believe in social justice, just not the Animal Farm kind.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hey_Pauly' timestamp='1329360205' post='2387813']
cmotherofpirl,

Thank you for the excellent post.
I'm not searching for a church that fits my feelings per ce. It is more about my conscience and me finding a way to worship God in a manner that is true to myself. After posting in this forum and Catholic Answers I am becoming increasingly convinced that the Catholic Church may not be the place for me to do that. This is something that makes me a little sad because I truly do love the beauty of the liturgy. I am just unable to divorce myself from the person that I believe God has created me to be.
[/quote]
Who is your true self?
Do you think morals come from God or your own conscience?
How is your conscience created, by the word of God, or by the particular culture you are in ?
All of us struggle with doing what God wants instead of what we want, its part of the deal of being human. Most of us have a Church teaching we probably like changed a bit.


[color=red][size=3]Philippians 12[/size][/color][color=#000000] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always[/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11181c.htm"]obeyed[/url][color=#000000], not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm"]salvation[/url][color=#000000]. [/color][color=red][size=3]13[/size][/color][color=#000000] For it is [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url][color=#000000] who works in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his [/color][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm"]good[/url][color=#000000] will. [/color]
[color=#000000]Notice the term WORK. . . Again if you think that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church, then all the doubts in the world should not keep you away. [/color][color=#000000]God decides who you are created to be from all eternity, we are a continual work in progress, if we just stay out of His way. Listen to the calling that brought you here [/color]

[Theresita Nerita]

I think Maggie's dead on.

You have to follow your conscience. As long as you act in good faith, without the nagging voice inside telling you you're lying to yourself, you can follow your conscience right out the door of the Church. If you're right, you're right. If you're wrong (we're all wrong sometimes) I believe God will eventually lead you back, not against your conscience but with it. It might take longer, and it might be a complicated journey back, but Jesus is the one with that crazy idea about paying the workers that show up at dawn the same wage as the workers who show up right before the end of the day, right? So if you're really striving after truth, I believe God sees that and will help you find it eventually.

Sometimes I think some Catholics (myself included) get a little proud of ourselves for showing up at the beginning of the day. But God works differently in everyone's life. As St Francis de Sales put it (smart guy!): God's action is like the sun, which produces one kind of light, but that light hits different surfaces and produces an infinite number of different colors. So it's not saying there's no objective truth if you observe that the light of God's grace hits different people in different ways, and produces lives that are colored very differently, and each very beautifully.

[Hey_Pauly]

Thank you to everyone for all of the thought provoking posts.

The feeling that I am getting is that most of you are advocating me returning to the church and seeing where God leads me from there. What if God doesn't change me other than to encourage me to grow closer to Him through the liturgy? What if in five years from now I'm still believing the same things?

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Hey_Pauly' timestamp='1329433956' post='2388158']
Thank you to everyone for all of the thought provoking posts.

The feeling that I am getting is that most of you are advocating me returning to the church and seeing where God leads me from there. What if God doesn't change me other than to encourage me to grow closer to Him through the liturgy? What if in five years from now I'm still believing the same things?
[/quote]

One thing I learned in my reversion and subsequent discernment to the Religious Life is to not worry about tomorrow. I am a big what if thinker if you could believe it. What I've learned is that in asking myself (and in some ways God) these what if questions; I am showing my lack of trust in Him and in His abilities.

Don't worry so much about whether you may or may not change. Focus rather on the fact that you are drawn to the Liturgy, perhaps that is what the Lord is using right now to call you to him [i]through [/i]the Catholic church. Be open and if you find that you are having a hard time doing that ask Him to help you. Do your best to live your faith and your relationship with Him day by day, stay in the present and you will find that there is freedom and great joy in entrusting the future to the Lord. The fact that you are aware the issues you have (I mean in terms of your personal belief system) is a wonderful thing, you now know what to take to Him.

My advice is focus on what draws you to the Church and not what separates you, go to Him in the Blessed Sacrament and be candid about your concerns (Lord I don't know how to reconcile my beliefs to this particular Church teaching) I've learned the hard way that there is nothing you can't take to the Lord. I've yelled at him in my frustration, given him the silent treatment and I'm sure there's plenty more. I've appreciated the fact that He's called me to be open and honest with Him with all of my worries. I still find myself worrying about the tomorrows but I'm constantly being reminded to trust Him. It's a challenge but know that your PM family will be keeping you in prayers.

Edited cause yo no se how to spell.

Edited February 16, 2012 by HopefulBride

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hey_Pauly' timestamp='1329433956' post='2388158']
Thank you to everyone for all of the thought provoking posts.

The feeling that I am getting is that most of you are advocating me returning to the church and seeing where God leads me from there. What if God doesn't change me other than to encourage me to grow closer to Him through the liturgy? What if in five years from now I'm still believing the same things?
[/quote]
God will lead you towards the truth. Whether or not you choose to cooperate and come to that truth is up to you. He doesn't forcibly change anybody against his free will.

But God cannot lead in contradictory ways regarding moral truth. It's supremely arrogant for you or I or any other person to think He's personally leading you or I to the truth regarding moral matters, while withholding the truth from or misleading His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. God cannot be divided against Himself.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1329362335' post='2387822']
Beware of choosing a religion that makes you comfortable or affirms you in all your beliefs. The Gospel should challenge you and make you uncomfortable, not be a "perfect fit."

Even Catholics do this sometimes (conservatives go to a conservative parish, liberals go to a liberal parish). If you are going to a church just to hear what you want to hear , it's a waste of time.
[/quote]
You've made some excellent points.

But interestingly, while I'm to the right of Attila the Hun, the priests that have done the most to challenge me and make me feel uncomfortable have been the most "conservative."

This is because "conservative" (ie. orthodox) priests tend to focus on spirituality and morality (including Jesus' "hard teachings" which are difficult for most of us to follow) rather than worldly politics or avoiding offending people.

As the parochial vicar of my parish says, "we're not here to help you feel good; we're here to help you be good."

While a liberal priests advocating, say, voting for Obama, would likely make me feel uncomfortable, it would be for the wrong reasons.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hey_Pauly' timestamp='1329433956' post='2388158']
Thank you to everyone for all of the thought provoking posts.

The feeling that I am getting is that most of you are advocating me returning to the church and seeing where God leads me from there. What if God doesn't change me other than to encourage me to grow closer to Him through the liturgy? What if in five years from now I'm still believing the same things?
[/quote]
Because then you will have had 5 years under your belt as a faithful Catholic, working out your salvation in fear and trembling,just like the rest of us.