The Tea Party Philosophy: Bill Whittle

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1329082107' post='2386027']
I no longer have any need of receiving props ever since Winchester posted he agreed with me. After that, props just seem.... superferluous. (But THANKS!)
[/quote]

[right][/right]

[Laudate_Dominum]

Wow. Not a lot of votes so far. Are there not many Tea Party supporters on PM? I'm hoping to interact with people knowledgeable about the Tea Party and members of it since I must confess that most of the information I've been exposed to has been from hostile sources. I assume Bill Whittle is a good representative?

Peace.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1328987996' post='2385508']
I'm listening to the video as I write this post...too long to listen closely lol. Sorry.

I wouldn't really define myself as a "conservative." I'm a believer in the march of history. I don't think communism was a big anomaly in history. I think communism was probably the inevitable result of human history, in various ways. It succeeded in the 20th century because the conditions in the world were oriented that way, in various ways. That doesn't mean that communism was the right way, but I think history progresses just as our private lives progress. Sometimes we ruin our lives with drugs, money, power, whatever...and that's true of history. People who are wise and older have a duty to help lead young people with wisdom, but older people can't live young people's lives for them. You have to respect that some people are going to ruin their lives, and hopefully they will unruin it in the future.

I don't believe the Constitution or the American principles of 1776 are perfect principles that we have to "conserve" as though society cannot be conceived of any other way. I am conservative or patriotic in the sense that I think the original American ideals are part of who we are, and we need to learn from them and discover who we are and where we are going. I see personal lives the same way...people need to learn who they are, where they came from, where they are going...and that process is different for everyone.

I was recently reading a few of Plutarch's Roman Lives, and it's amazing how people are always basically the same. Cato the Elder, one of the figures Plutarch writes about, was given a position (I forget the exact name, I think it was Censor or something) where he was basically the moral enforcer of Rome. He wanted to tax or put on trial people who lived too luxuriously. And there were lots of tensions between the poor and the rich, the plebes and the senators, etc.

To me, things like the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street are both signs of the times...what the signs are, are for the wise among us to try and learn from. I wouldn't dismiss either movement...but I wouldn't necessarily get behind them either. I do think we are probably at a critical moment in our history...but I think history is going to move at its own pace. That is not to say we cannot change the course of history, but the world is changing just as it always has changed. The American idea was pretty much a repudiation of all history...the repudiation of kings. Hardly "conservative." I think history will sort itself out, for good or for bad. I don't dismiss the "spirit of the tea party," but I don't base my life around it. I don't believe you can run America like it's an 18th century society of farmers. The world has changed. The world is changing. Learn from the past, don't dismiss it. But to me, the march of history has priority over the telling of it.

As for the "elitism," it's strange to hear Newt Gingrich deride "the elite media." Isn't that class warfare?

I don't know if anything I just said makes any sense...that's what comes out of my head in 10 minutes of typing, whatever it's worth.
[/quote]
Thanks for the thoughtful remarks, bro.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1329082107' post='2386027']
I no longer have any need of receiving props ever since Winchester posted he agreed with me. After that, props just seem.... superferluous. (But THANKS!)
[/quote]
I was as happy as you.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1328987996' post='2385508']
I wouldn't really define myself as a "conservative." I'm a believer in the march of history. I don't think communism was a big anomaly in history. I think communism was probably the inevitable result of human history, in various ways.
[/quote]
I disagree on several counts. The "March of History" is a Hegelian idea, by way of Marx.

One of the points my mentor in history, the late great Dr. Warren Carroll, loved to repeatedly emphasize was how it's individual men and women, not impersonal socio-economic forces, that make history - both for good and for ill. He would give many examples of how history was changed the decision of a single great man, or determined by the outcome of a single battle or vote. He loved to talk about people who were "History Makers."

I don't believe the Communist Revolution, or Nazism, or anything else, was truly inevitable or unavoidable. If Karl Marx had never written his books, if Vladimir Lenin had not embraced Communism, but used his considerable talents for a better cause, if the Czar had not been so weak, if any number of people had acted differently, world history would tell a very different story.

The idea that human beings are mere pawns in the inevitable "March of History" negates the idea that we are truly endowed with intellect and Free Will in the nature and image of God.

Or, in the words from the immortal film [i]Terminator II[/i], "No fate but what we make."

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1328988517' post='2385510']
By the way, a small note on immigration. Conservatives are like the kid in the class who speaks up at the end of class if a teacher forgets to give them homework, or who cries because someone cuts in line. My favorite is when someone rails against illegal immigration because "My grandfather waited in line at Ellis Island and came here legally." Um, your grandfather lived across the ocean...how do you know he wouldn't have come here illegally if he had the chance. People are such whining legalists. Immigration is a massive human problem, but the criminalization of illegal immigrants probably annoys me as much as anything. So people cut in line...get over yourself. And yes, I believe in amnesty as a general solution (of course, there will have to be exceptions), although there are lot of practical matters to iron out to actually solve the problems that come with human migration.
[/quote]
As one who had great grandparents who did come across the ocean and wait in line at Ellis Island to become American citizens, and a conservative who believes in the right of sovereign nations to secure its borders, I find your diatribe insulting and insipid.

My ancestors, as did most who became American citizens ca. 100 years ago, [i]wanted[/i] to become American. They wished to obey the laws of their new country, respect its flag, and become fluent in English.

To compare them with those who sneak over illegally in contempt of the law, and have no interest in becoming American, is wrong. When you have massive numbers doing so every year, you have a serious problem. That's not "whining legalism," but reality.

And talk of "criminalizing" illegal immigration is nonsensical. They knowingly broke the law, so they are by definition already criminals.

[/hijack]

With the regards to the OT, I didn't have time to watch the vids, and really have no knowledge of or particular interest in this Bill Whittle guy, but from what I've read, I generally agree with the goals of the Tea Party movement, though I have no formal affiliation with them or any other group/

I doubt Whittle's words would have any effect on my conservative beliefs one way or the other.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Socrates

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1329347374' post='2387691']
I disagree on several counts. The "March of History" is a Hegelian idea, by way of Marx.[/quote]
Never having read Marx or Hegel, I wouldn't know about that. But the idea of Fate is much older...I'm in a Homeric frame of mind at the moment, as I'm reading the Iliad.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1329347374' post='2387691']
The idea that human beings are mere pawns in the inevitable "March of History" negates the idea that we are truly endowed with intellect and Free Will in the nature and image of God.[/quote]
Just because we have free will doesn't mean we can change our Fate (I'm using the word Fate in a loose sense). We can change how we respond to our Fate, but we can't change it any more than the leopard can change his spots (or the ugly man his face). When Achilles has finally come upon Hector to send him to Hades, Hector decides that he can do no more but face Achilles like a man, and leave some final act of heroism...but he still goes rushing down to Hades.

There is no doubt that we can change history...but history has a life of its own, and the people who "change" it do so in small ways. Gandhi changed history...but that doesn't mean modern India is politically Ghandian.

I think the people who place too much emphasis on either fate or free will are the ones who end up repressing the most, because they cannot let go of the power that comes with their assumption. Christ's free will was a renunciation of power on the Cross...very different from those who use free will in other ways to "change history" (whether it's Stalin breaking a few eggs to make an omelett or the Inquisition burning a few heretics to save Christendom).

Edited February 16, 2012 by Era Might

[Winchester]

I read this a while back; I don't support our immigration policy, but Hoppe made some interesting points.
http://mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_8.pdf