Obama's War On The Church

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1331055400' post='2396904']
"Disapprove" is not defined as "support the use of violence by the State to prevent".

It's not mere "disapproval" to which Hasan the Secret Muslim, protector of Islam, is objecting. It is the use of threat of violence to prevent and punish those actions.
[/quote]

[img]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2052/2194362620_37984ae14e_m.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

...

[MissMaro]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1331055400' post='2396904']
"Disapprove" is not defined as "support the use of violence by the State to prevent".

It's not mere "disapproval" to which Hasan the Secret Muslim, protector of Islam, is objecting. It is the use of threat of violence to prevent and punish those actions.
[/quote]

If he meant that, he should have said that.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1330995032' post='2396689']
What are you talking about? How is mandating that insurance companies cover contraception intruding in an individual's bedroom? You don't have to purchase contraception. If you don't believe in contraception you are free to avoid it. You all are the ones attempting to legally compel archaic sexual ethics.
[/quote]

Except many Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical, Lutheran etc organizations are SELF-INSURED, so you ARE asking insurance companies to cover croutons that violates their beliefs.
If Obama was in any way serious about womens health, which he is not, he would mandate insurance companies to cover statins for women since the leading cause of death for us is cardiovascular disease.

[4588686]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331096467' post='2397121']
Except many Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical, Lutheran etc organizations are SELF-INSURED, so you ARE asking insurance companies to cover croutons that violates their beliefs.
If Obama was in any way serious about womens health, which he is not, he would mandate insurance companies to cover statins for women since the leading cause of death for us is cardiovascular disease.
[/quote]

I missed the part where you showed how that is an instance of Obama trying to insert himself into your bedroom.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1331098491' post='2397123']


I missed the part where you showed how that is an instance of Obama trying to insert himself into your bedroom.
[/quote]


It's more of a "Stay out of my bedroom...but pay for what goes on in it!" sort of thing, on the part of many who support the mandate.

He's not inserting himself into bedrooms, exactly; he's inserting people's wallets into other people's bedrooms.

[4588686]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1331100757' post='2397131']
It's more of a "Stay out of my bedroom...but pay for what goes on in it!" sort of thing, on the part of many who support the mandate.

He's not inserting himself into bedrooms, exactly; he's inserting people's wallets into other people's bedrooms.
[/quote]

[img]http://flamesnation.ca/uploads/Image/stretch.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

[quote name='MissMaro' timestamp='1331084300' post='2397062']
If he meant that, he should have said that.
[/quote]
He did.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1330995032' post='2396689']
What are you talking about? How is mandating that insurance companies cover contraception intruding in an individual's bedroom? You don't have to purchase contraception. If you don't believe in contraception you are free to avoid it. You all are the ones attempting to legally compel archaic sexual ethics.
[/quote]
Hi Hasan,
I don't know anything about you except that under your picture it says you are not catholic. That said, I just wanted to explain the catholic belief about contraception. As a child of God, striving to do only God's will, the Church teaches that we must accept natural order. We shouldn't be fearful of what God may give us but be open to all his gifts including life. Trusting in God is a big part of the equation here. We even must be open to the possibility of the suffering God may send us if we truly want to follow in Christs foot steps. Pretend life is a car. The automatic reaction is to only trust ourselves and that would make us the driver of the car which is life. The church asks us to let God be the driver. Besides, he is the best driver there ever could be. When we learn to obey God and furthermore, trust him, our lives will be infinitely better than if we didn't follow God's will. There is a reason he is called God.

So, then this makes the church's teaching on contraception a supper important belief in the Church.It is not fair when Catholics say that something like the contraception mandate (for example) is against our conscience and our view is disregarded. It makes me feel like we are living under a socialist government. Like the only opinion that matters is the one of the person(s) in power. The Church just wants to look out for it's people. And furthermore for the truth. For example, If everyone in the room thinks 2 +2 = 3, But I am the only one who knows that the answer is 4, I am certainly going to try to help others understand. It would be lazy and unjust for me to sit around and say nothing. I think the church is in the same position with the contraception mandate. The truth deserves to be defended. And while other beliefs have the same right, I don't believe that their beleif trumps mine, nor vice versa. I truly think the government is in place solely to make sure our county has a basic judicial system with laws to protect the welfare of the people. Making a mandate on contraception should not be done. I don't care weather your talking about contraception or chocolate milk. Mandating anything is just wrong. I don't think anything should be enforced on anyone. Even God agrees with that. He didn't force his will on us. He simply asked us to follow it and gave us free will. I hope this helps!

[4588686]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1331156577' post='2397378']
Hi Hasan,
I don't know anything about you except that under your picture it says you are not catholic. That said, I just wanted to explain the catholic belief about contraception. As a child of God, striving to do only God's will, the Church teaches that we must accept natural order. We shouldn't be fearful of what God may give us but be open to all his gifts including life. Trusting in God is a big part of the equation here. We even must be open to the possibility of the suffering God may send us if we truly want to follow in Christs foot steps. Pretend life is a car. The automatic reaction is to only trust ourselves and that would make us the driver of the car which is life. The church asks us to let God be the driver. Besides, he is the best driver there ever could be. When we learn to obey God and furthermore, trust him, our lives will be infinitely better than if we didn't follow God's will. There is a reason he is called God. [/QUOTE]

I was raised Catholic and once discerned the Priesthood. I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the issue to me though.

[QUOTE] So, then this makes the church's teaching on contraception a supper important belief in the Church.It is not fair when Catholics say that something like the contraception mandate (for example) is against our conscience and our view is disregarded. [/QUOTE]

It actually is. and it is thanks, in large part, to the arch conservative, and devout Catholic, Justice Antoine Scalia. Employment Dept. V. smith. There are a few problems with your view. Catholics are not the only religious group. Does every religious group get to veto whichever laws they don't like? Why should Hindu's have to pay taxes which fund school lunch programs that serve beef with the food? Why does a Catholic conscience get special privileged. I'm deeply opposed to the Israeli occupation in the Palestinian territories. Why should I have to pay taxes that go to fund the Israeli military?

[QUOTE] It makes me feel like we are living under a socialist government. [/QUOTE]

You don't. You live under a liberal (in the classical sense) representative government with a mixed economy.

[QUOTE] Like the only opinion that matters is the one of the person(s) in power. The Church just wants to look out for it's people. [/QUOTE]

It's people don't have to use contraception. The Church not wanting to pay for Insurance policies the cover contraception for it's secular employees is a reasonable problem. But this is an issue like abortion where you have several reasonable claims all coming into conflict. Why should someone working at a hospital have to have deficient insurance coverage just because their hospital has a Catholic affiliation? There isn't a clear answer here and there isn't any single answer that avoids stepping on someone's toes. The compromise is, in my opinion, perfectly reasonable. The Church now has no direct role in getting the Birth control to the employees. If that isn't good enough then the Church needs to get out of the health care business and stick to running Churchs. I don't know what else to say. Pluralistic democracy requires compromise. If the Church can't or won't compromise then it needs to get out of secular pursuits.

[QUOTE] And furthermore for the truth. For example, If everyone in the room thinks 2 +2 = 3, But I am the only one who knows that the answer is 4, I am certainly going to try to help others understand. It would be lazy and unjust for me to sit around and say nothing. I think the church is in the same position with the contraception mandate. The truth deserves to be defended. And while other beliefs have the same right, I don't believe that their beleif trumps mine, nor vice versa. I truly think the government is in place solely to make sure our county has a basic judicial system with laws to protect the welfare of the people. Making a mandate on contraception should not be done. I don't care weather your talking about contraception or chocolate milk. Mandating anything is just wrong. I don't think anything should be enforced on anyone. Even God agrees with that. He didn't force his will on us. He simply asked us to follow it and gave us free will. I hope this helps!
[/quote]

Well then your fundamental problem is living under a state. Or living under a state that is not catholic.

[cmotherofpirl]

Actually the Jews, Baptists, Evangelicals, Lutherans, Presbyterians have all stated they will not obey the unconstitutional mandate either.This in not a Catholic issue, its a Constitutional one.

[4588686]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331169617' post='2397486']
Actually the Jews, Baptists, Evangelicals, Lutherans, Presbyterians have all stated they will not obey the unconstitutional mandate either.This in not a Catholic issue, its a Constitutional one.
[/quote]

No it's not because you have no religious right to exemption from laws of general applicability. I'm waiting for one of you to actually engage with this in a substantive way. I continually point to specific case law (EMPLOYMENT DIVISION v. SMITH *sough* *cough*) and that is met with nothing more than evasive squawks of "NO BUT FOR REALZ IT'S TOTS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!!"


If it is unconstitutional then SHOW SOME LEGAL BASIS. Present something. I'm sure you can find SOMETHING to bolster your case with. Yet for some reason nobody here is willing to do any sort of work to show that their argument has any basis other than their intuitive sense of what they think ought to be constitutional.

[cmotherofpirl]

[color=#000000]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the [/color][url="http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/BillOfRights.html#"]free[/url][color=#000000] exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/color]


[color=#000000]We have the right to run our insitutions as we see fit.[/color]

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1331171169' post='2397506']
No it's not because you have no religious right to exemption from laws of general applicability. I'm waiting for one of you to actually engage with this in a substantive way. I continually point to specific case law (EMPLOYMENT DIVISION v. SMITH *sough* *cough*) and that is met with nothing more than evasive squawks of "NO BUT FOR REALZ IT'S TOTS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!!"


If it is unconstitutional then SHOW SOME LEGAL BASIS. Present something. I'm sure you can find SOMETHING to bolster your case with. Yet for some reason nobody here is willing to do any sort of work to show that their argument has any basis other than their intuitive sense of what they think ought to be constitutional.
[/quote]

dood. you've been shown the legal basis so many times its getting repetitive over and over again redundantly. you just refuse to see sense. can;t show truth to someone who does not want to see it....

<-- just for you

[4588686]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1331177341' post='2397571']
[color=#000000]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the [/color][url="http://www.ratical.org/co-globalize/BillOfRights.html#"]free[/url][color=#000000] exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/color]


[color=#000000]We have the right to run our insitutions as we see fit.[/color]
[/quote]

No. You don't. You never have. And you never will. Religious belief has sacrosanct legal protection. Religious activity does not (have the same degree of legal protection) and never has.

Here is conservative Justice and Constitutional Origionalist explaining why you don't.


[url="http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1989/1989_88_1213/"]http://www.oyez.org/...9/1989_88_1213/[/url]


This is why Muslim men cannot four wives. A religiously affiliated hospital does not have the right to pay their employees below minimum wage. Or use child labor. Stop evading and engage with the actual difficulties with your argument.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Hasan