The Character Of A President - Affairs, Newt, Clinton Etc

[dairygirl4u2c]

'I do think that a debate shouldn't revolve around a candidate's personal life and it was fine for the candidates to reject those sorts of questions'

i noticed a post with that in it got some major props in the newt thread, from promenent conservative sof this board. since when do we disregard a person's personal life? it factors in at least some, and i'd think i'd be preaching to the choir at a conservative board.
how a person treats his spouse, cheating on her when she's ill, lying, etc etc, are all character issues that you want to examine for someone aspiring to be our greatest leader. how is this not true? howthey conduct themselves personally can indicate how they would conduct themselves otherwise, lying cheating etc.
that was the sentiment from conservative during clinton years, too so? i mean, he did commit purjury in his lies, arguably, but still. the sentiment was and should be that character matters.

[Luigi]

I agree. How one behaves in one's personal life is an indication of how one will behave in public life. If you take care of the little things, the big things will take care of themselves and all that. Character is pretty consistent, too - how you are is pretty much how you always are. If people are inconsistent, they usually behave better in public than they do in private. And character is an extremely important criterion on which I base my voting decisions.

I will say, however, that the situation is not as black-and-white as it seems on first glance. One's past actions are not [i]always[/i] a good indication of one's future actions[b] IF[/b] one has learned from past mistakes. I feel like a good follower of Christ has to allow for forgiveness and renewed trust, like Jesus did with Peter and others. The question is whether the person who behaved badly in the past:
1. has actually learned, grown,matured, had a change of heart,
2. is simply containing bad behavior slightly better these day,
3. or is simply better at covering tracks these days.
Maybe I'm not all that good a follower of Christ - unless I see some real repentance (which I can't define but I recognize when I see), I suspect that the change in behavior is a result of #2 or #3.

[Anomaly]

It's not taking care of "little things". These are fundamental core principles to the person and a great indicator of their character. It's one thing to have an affair that may end your marriage. It's quite another to have multiple affairs, ruin multiple marriages, etc. There's no other way to call it, Newt's a scum bag.

[Ed Normile]

First I am not defending Newt, but where did Anomaly hear that he had multiple affairs ruining multiple marriages?

Luigi, as Newt is a converted Catholic, taking into account the fact that many converted catholics are more devout in their faith than the average cradle catholic, how did you discern that his changes in behavior are a result of #2 or #3, unless of course you are gifted similiar to Padre Pio.
And your statement "[b]How one behaves in one's personal life is an indication of how one will behave in public life. If you take care of the little things, the big things will take care of themselves and all that. Character is pretty consistent, too - how you are is pretty much how you always are[/b]" is a shame, please do not tell this to teh apostles or many of the saints who were morally bankrupt at points in their lives and ended up saints.

I will back Santorum until he is no longer an option, and if the only option is Newt the womanzier, or Mitt the big goverment, health care mandating, republican in name only liberal, I will vote for any other than the socialist that we currently have in the office.

Dairygirl, the conservative sentiment during the Clinton years was that it definetly mattered, but the media crucified everyone that even mentioned it stating that his personal life was his own affair and nothing to do with his office, it was only until he perjured himself under oath to a congressional commitee that he got into trouble and was eventually impeached. Amazing how that now its a republican the press keeps running these stories.

ed

Edited February 9, 2012 by Ed Normile

[Luigi]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1328765366' post='2384111']
First I am not defending Newt, but where did Anomaly hear that he had multiple affairs ruining multiple marriages?

Luigi, as Newt is a converted Catholic, taking into account the fact that many converted catholics are more devout in their faith than the average cradle catholic, how did you discern that his changes in behavior are a result of #2 or #3, unless of course you are gifted similiar to Padre Pio.
And your statement "[b]How one behaves in one's personal life is an indication of how one will behave in public life. If you take care of the little things, the big things will take care of themselves and all that. Character is pretty consistent, too - how you are is pretty much how you always are[/b]" is a shame, please do not tell this to teh apostles or many of the saints who were morally bankrupt at points in their lives and ended up saints.

I will back Santorum until he is no longer an option, and if the only option is Newt the womanzier, or Mitt the big goverment, health care mandating, republican in name only liberal, I will vote for any other than the socialist that we currently have in the office.

Dairygirl, the conservative sentiment during the Clinton years was that it definetly mattered, but the media crucified everyone that even mentioned it stating that his personal life was his own affair and nothing to do with his office, it was only until he perjured himself under oath to a congressional commitee that he got into trouble and was eventually impeached. Amazing how that now its a republican the press keeps running these stories.

ed
[/quote]

Ed -

You've misunderstood me, and so has Anomaly. dairygurl4u2c may be talking about Newt Gingrich in particular, but I am specifically talking about "one" - any politician (she also mentions Clinton - we could throw in JFK, Arnold Schwartzenegger, that guy from south Carolina (?) who was having an affair with an Argentinian, and any number of other people), any public figure, any person in general. I never said a word about Newt Gingrich. READ, dude - with both eyes!

In my experience, I have known ordinary people - not just politicians or public figures - who seemed like nice guys, married, father of (up to) 9, pillar-of-the-community Catholic, attended church weekly and retreat annually, respected in their professions, etc..... who have left their wives - for the nurse who worked in their office, for a younger woman, for whatever. Obviously, these men were able to mask parts of their character - very important parts.

So I want to evaluate a candidate by her/his character, but I find it extremely difficult to do.

I also said I [i]feel[/i] like [b]I[/b] should forgive past indiscretions. But if a person has successfully hidden important parts of her/his character in the past, how can[b] I [/b]tell if s/he's really reformed now, instead of just hiding important parts of her/his character again?

I'm accusing [b]myself[/b] of being un-Christian and [b]I'm[/b] accepting the blame for being un-Christian - I know I should forgive (and forget), but I can't. I - Luigi - personally - not all people everywhere - usually feel that they're maybe just containing themselves a little better for now (but that more indiscretions may pop up at any moment) or that they're just hiding their indiscretions better these days.

No, I cant' read character like Padre Pio - would that I could! But I also can't forgive like Jesus did.



BTW, Jesus never had to choose whether to support the Pharisees, the Saducees, or the Romans, either.

[Luigi]

Follow-On

As to "[color=#282828]teh apostles or many of the saints who were morally bankrupt at points in their lives and ended up saints." pretty obviously they learned from their past mistakes, they achieved[/color][color=#282828] some real repentance (which I can't define but I recognize when I see), they [/color][color=#282828] "actually learned, [grew], matured, had a change of heart." I [b]do[/b] believe it's possible - I just don't trust myself to evaluate as honest & forthright, particularly when big stakes are involved, or media handlers. [/color]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1328765366' post='2384111']
First I am not defending Newt, but where did Anomaly hear that he had multiple affairs ruining multiple marriages?

Luigi, as Newt is a converted Catholic, taking into account the fact that many converted catholics are more devout in their faith than the average cradle catholic, how did you discern that his changes in behavior are a result of #2 or #3, unless of course you are gifted similiar to Padre Pio.
And your statement "[b]How one behaves in one's personal life is an indication of how one will behave in public life. If you take care of the little things, the big things will take care of themselves and all that. Character is pretty consistent, too - how you are is pretty much how you always are[/b]" is a shame, please do not tell this to teh apostles or many of the saints who were morally bankrupt at points in their lives and ended up saints.

I will back Santorum until he is no longer an option, and if the only option is Newt the womanzier, or Mitt the big goverment, health care mandating, republican in name only liberal, I will vote for any other than the socialist that we currently have in the office.

Dairygirl, the conservative sentiment during the Clinton years was that it definetly mattered, but the media crucified everyone that even mentioned it stating that his personal life was his own affair and nothing to do with his office, it was only until he perjured himself under oath to a congressional commitee that he got into trouble and was eventually impeached. Amazing how that now its a republican the press keeps running these stories.

ed
[/quote]Ed, I was referring to Newt being on his third marriage after having affairs while he is married. You call him a womanizer yourself.

I'm not a religous person, but I have personal standards of moral behavior. Repeatedly breaking marriage vows is a huge betrayal of personal trust and solemn promises. People always make mistakes and screw up, however, repeatedly making the same serious bad choice is another matter. Granted, it's a personal and subjective opinion, but it is stupid to ignore the gravity and frequency of bad behavior in the context of a political office they're asking to be elected to. I personally have a ton of [u]respect and love [/u]of certain people I know who are on their second or third marriage, have children out of wedlock, but I'm not evaluating them to hold public office that requires a great amount of public trust.

[Winchester]

I agree with anomaly.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1328801859' post='2384222']
I agree with anomaly.
[/quote]I shall revel in the warm and fuzzy feeling that gave me for the rest of the afternoon.

[Winchester]

This is like when Lex Luthor and Superman have to team up to fight some more terrible menace. Dibs on Luthor.

[CatherineM]

Power often goes to people's heads. Really quality people rarely want to roll around in the mud that politics is. When one does they usually get chewed up.

[qfnol31]

I am less reluctant to hold someone who has recently converted to Catholicism (or many converts in general) to their past lives. in joining the Church we must repent and ask forgiveness for our past lives. For a public figure whose sins are well-known it would be nearly impossible to approach the Church without first asking forgiveness. It has been several years since Newt's previous affairs and he has shown no sign of repeating that behavior. If he were to go down that road again I'd be very disappointed.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-_BuvIe8uQ&t=52s[/media]
I highly recommend jumping to 0:52 to hear what he says now. Also, be sure to jump ahead to 1:15 as well. He talks about his marriage and how he has learned an immense amount and he has been blessed by God as a person to move beyond these past acts.

I don't hold the same opinions of Bill Clinton because he has not made any sort of public conversion (in the sense Newt has) and he spent too long lying about it. If Clinton were to convert to Catholicism and acknowledge that he needed God's forgiveness in this way I too would move past his prior life. Even if he acknowledged it again and said he was working to move past that point in his life then I'd give him some of the benefit of the doubt. He hasn't and so I think it's still relevant in a way that Newt's isn't.

Edited February 9, 2012 by qfnol31

[arfink]

Well, thank goodness theres SOMEBODY who enjoys messing with politics, otherwise where would we get our incompetent leaders from?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1328830718' post='2384530']
Well, thank goodness theres SOMEBODY who enjoys messing with politics, otherwise where would we get our incompetent leaders from?
[/quote]

Yes indeed. Whatever would we do with a group of elites who are incompetent at best, and more likely just outright evil, to run every aspect of our lives? ^_^

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1328816077' post='2384319']
I don't hold the same opinions of Bill Clinton because he has not made any sort of public conversion (in the sense Newt has) and he spent too long lying about it. If Clinton were to convert to Catholicism and acknowledge that he needed God's forgiveness in this way I too would move past his prior life. Even if he acknowledged it again and said he was working to move past that point in his life then I'd give him some of the benefit of the doubt. He hasn't and so I think it's still relevant in a way that Newt's isn't.
[/quote]

What exactly separates a man who has sinned and says "I am sorry, i will try to sin no more", and a man who has sinned and says "i have a new religion, i will try to sin no more?"

Especially when the religion he held during all the affairs specifically prohibits adultery just as much as his new religion?

Im sorry, but you dont automatically become a new good person when you sign up to be a catholic.