Rick Santorum Takes Mo, Mn, And Co!

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1328849895' post='2384711']
These posts, downplaying torture, go against everything people have told me it means to be Catholic.

The person who would put gays getting married over people being bound, abducted, and mercilessly tortured is not some i care to know.
[/quote]
Then I guess we better never meet.

We lose 1 million unborn babies a year in the US. Hitler killed 6 million Jews total. America has killed 54 million unborn since 1973.
This makes abortion, an intrinsic evil, a top issue when it comes to voting.

Below is a Catholic guide to voting. It notes the 5 non-negotiables. Torture isn't listed. But gay marriage, and abortion are.

[url="http://www.caaction.com/pdf/Voters-Guide-Catholic-English-1.pdf"]http://www.caaction.com/pdf/Voters-Guide-Catholic-English-1.pdf[/url]

Now, I can't copy text from the pdf, but I ask you to look at page 11 that lists [quote]How to vote.[/quote] Note number 4. It basically says to vote for the candidate who will do the least harm to the non-negotiables.

Fact. Abortion, and gay marriage are much more important issues that will do much more harm to society than torture.

How many lives are affected by abortion each year? We lost 1 million unborn babies a year....I'm not even including the mothers and the emotional aftermath. This makes abortion a TOP issue. Gay marriage is a big issue today and the identity of this country is on the verge of being lost as some in this country are ready to redefine marriage to what we want. 6 states or so allow gay marriage, and more will be on the way if we do not elect good leaders.

Hitler killed 6 million Jews. America has killed 54 million unborn. Hitler would be proud.

The fight for gay marriage rights is arbitrary, based on feelings, and is not grounded in tradition, nor Christianity. If you allow marriage to be whatever you want it to be, you have opened what you cannot shut. Assuming gay marriage is a grave threat to society....which it is....then this makes gay marriage a top priority. This thread is not about whether gay marriage will negatively impact our society. If you want to debate this, we should start another thread. Catholic teaching is quite explicit against gay marriage and the effects on society.

Thus, gay marriage gets a top priority.

Now, here is torture. How does torture overshadow the redefinition of marriage and 1 million unborn per year? Are millions affected by torture? Is it hundreds? Do they die from it? Is society ready to cave in because of it?

Another citation on Catholic voting.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm[/url]

While the Catholic Church does teach against torture, it does not use near the force it does on abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc.

[quote][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm"][b]2297[/b][/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] [/size][/font][/color][i]Kidnapping [/i][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]and [/size][/font][/color][i]hostage taking[/i][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. [/size][/font][/color][i]Terrorism [/i][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. [/size][/font][/color][i]Torture [/i][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended [/size][/font][/color][i]amputations[/i][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3], [/size][/font][/color][i]mutilations[/i][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3], and [/size][/font][/color][i]sterilizations [/i][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3]performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.[/size][/font][/color][sup]91[/sup][/quote]



If I am wrong, please explain to me why, and let me know who it is appropriate to vote for and why.

I am arguing that a Catholic in good conscience can vote for Rick Santorum. Please counter accordingly.

[Marie-Therese]

I'll answer that.

Being pro-life does not mean simply being anti-abortion. It means upholding the inherent dignity of all human life, regardless of age or ability, from conception to natural death. Voting for a candidate who states openly that he supports practices that are an affront to human dignity is in direct opposition to the entire point of being pro-life. Voting for the lesser of two evils is voting for evil.

If there is no candidate which represents the values of Christ, then I believe that you are bound to withhold your vote. Why would you willingly support someone who says he supports something that the Church teaches is morally wrong? Fact is, when it comes to politics, people are more than willing to set aside their oh-so-righteous ideologies in favour of party advancement. To me that is base hypocrisy. Either morals are important, or they aren't. Elections don't make right and wrong negotiable.

[MIKolbe]

[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=3][left]"...I reiterate that the prohibition against torture “cannot be contravened under any circumstances...”" [/left][/size][/font][/color][url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2007/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070906_pastorale-carceraria_en.html"]Pope Benedict XVI[/url]

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1328855264' post='2384743']
[left]"...I reiterate that the prohibition against torture “cannot be contravened under any circumstances...”"[/left]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2007/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070906_pastorale-carceraria_en.html"]Pope Benedict XVI[/url]
[/quote]


You rock.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1328847022' post='2384695']
I'd rather we "torture" our enemies then be tortured by the central government.
[/quote]
then you are at odds with the Church.

And with Jesus scourged and crucified for that matter....

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1328855031' post='2384742']
I'll answer that.

Being pro-life does not mean simply being anti-abortion. It means upholding the inherent dignity of all human life, regardless of age or ability, from conception to natural death. Voting for a candidate who states openly that he supports practices that are an affront to human dignity is in direct opposition to the entire point of being pro-life. Voting for the lesser of two evils is voting for evil.

If there is no candidate which represents the values of Christ, then I believe that you are bound to withhold your vote. Why would you willingly support someone who says he supports something that the Church teaches is morally wrong? Fact is, when it comes to politics, people are more than willing to set aside their oh-so-righteous ideologies in favour of party advancement. To me that is base hypocrisy. Either morals are important, or they aren't. Elections don't make right and wrong negotiable.
[/quote]Here are some important reasons why I think we have an obligation to vote in America, even when neither party is a great option:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=22732&view=findpost&p=398787
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=84227&view=findpost&p=1640982 In this post, the first point sort of begs the question, but it explains at least how it is possible to vote otherwise
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=19830&view=findpost&p=361591
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=19830&view=findpost&p=367502

I can't go through these to craft an argument for why we should vote even when no candidate is great, but I still stand by most of what I said in those posts.

[qfnol31]

For the record, I am against water-boarding and other forms of torture entirely. I won't mention some of things for which I have gotten in trouble on this site, but needless to say I am completely pro-life and hope to contribute to the Culture of Life.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1328853671' post='2384735']
Then I guess we better never meet.

We lose 1 million unborn babies a year in the US. Hitler killed 6 million Jews total. America has killed 54 million unborn since 1973.
This makes abortion, an intrinsic evil, a top issue when it comes to voting.

Below is a Catholic guide to voting. It notes the 5 non-negotiables. Torture isn't listed. But gay marriage, and abortion are.

[url="http://www.caaction.com/pdf/Voters-Guide-Catholic-English-1.pdf"]http://www.caaction....c-English-1.pdf[/url]

Now, I can't copy text from the pdf, but I ask you to look at page 11 that lists Note number 4. It basically says to vote for the candidate who will do the least harm to the non-negotiables.

Fact. Abortion, and gay marriage are much more important issues that will do much more harm to society than torture.

How many lives are affected by abortion each year? We lost 1 million unborn babies a year....I'm not even including the mothers and the emotional aftermath. This makes abortion a TOP issue. Gay marriage is a big issue today and the identity of this country is on the verge of being lost as some in this country are ready to redefine marriage to what we want. 6 states or so allow gay marriage, and more will be on the way if we do not elect good leaders.

Hitler killed 6 million Jews. America has killed 54 million unborn. Hitler would be proud.

The fight for gay marriage rights is arbitrary, based on feelings, and is not grounded in tradition, nor Christianity. If you allow marriage to be whatever you want it to be, you have opened what you cannot shut. Assuming gay marriage is a grave threat to society....which it is....then this makes gay marriage a top priority. This thread is not about whether gay marriage will negatively impact our society. If you want to debate this, we should start another thread. Catholic teaching is quite explicit against gay marriage and the effects on society.

Thus, gay marriage gets a top priority.

Now, here is torture. How does torture overshadow the redefinition of marriage and 1 million unborn per year? Are millions affected by torture? Is it hundreds? Do they die from it? Is society ready to cave in because of it?

Another citation on Catholic voting.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vote/brief_catechism.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/...f_catechism.htm[/url]

While the Catholic Church does teach against torture, it does not use near the force it does on abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc.





If I am wrong, please explain to me why, and let me know who it is appropriate to vote for and why.

I am arguing that a Catholic in good conscience can vote for Rick Santorum. Please counter accordingly.
[/quote]

The implication that somehow gay marriage is worse than torture is blowing my mind right now. I would rather be gay married to some dude against my will than tortured and mutilated.

and thats not even the frickin question!!

Im glad you can so neatly follow the "Catholic [s]paint[/s] vote by numbers" kit, but the fact remains that your views on torture are contrary to what the church teaches. and if the church magically became ok with torture tomorrow, then the Church would be wrong as well.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Jesus_lol

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1328858629' post='2384754']
The implication that somehow gay marriage is worse than torture is blowing my mind right now. I would rather be gay married to some dude against my will than tortured and mutilated.

and thats not even the frickin question!!

Im glad you can so neatly follow the "Catholic [s]paint[/s] vote by numbers" kit, but the fact remains that your views on torture are contrary to what the church teaches. and if the church magically became ok with torture tomorrow, then the Church would be wrong as well.
[/quote]Are you responding to me or someone above me? I'm completely against torture, which is what I believe the Church teaches. In the earlier threads I would have claimed only that Bush's use of torture was less grave than Kerry's support of abortion based on sheer numbers and that abortion kills more frequently than torture.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1328858936' post='2384756']
Are you responding to me or someone above me? I'm completely against torture, which is what I believe the Church teaches. In the earlier threads I would have claimed only that Bush's use of torture was less grave than Kerry's support of abortion based on sheer numbers and that abortion kills more frequently than torture.
[/quote]

sorry, i edited in the quote, was not addressing you. we seem to be of similar opinion on torture.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1328855031' post='2384742']
I'll answer that.

Being pro-life does not mean simply being anti-abortion. It means upholding the inherent dignity of all human life, regardless of age or ability, from conception to natural death. Voting for a candidate who states openly that he supports practices that are an affront to human dignity is in direct opposition to the entire point of being pro-life. Voting for the lesser of two evils is voting for evil.

If there is no candidate which represents the values of Christ, then I believe that you are bound to withhold your vote. Why would you willingly support someone who says he supports something that the Church teaches is morally wrong? Fact is, when it comes to politics, people are more than willing to set aside their oh-so-righteous ideologies in favour of party advancement. To me that is base hypocrisy. Either morals are important, or they aren't. Elections don't make right and wrong negotiable.
[/quote]I just want to add that the USCCB does admit of the extreme circumstance of withholding our votes, but seems to want us to vote for the "better" candidate rather than not voting.

[quote name='USCCB Voter's Guide]34. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter’s intent is to support that position. In such cases a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.

35. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons. Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil.

36. When all candidates hold a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, the conscientious voter faces a dilemma. The voter may decide to take the extraordinary step of not voting for any candidate or, after careful deliberation, [b]may decide to vote for the candidate deemed less likely to advance such a morally flawed position and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods.[/b]

37. In making these decisions, it is essential for Catholics to be guided by a well-formed conscience that recognizes that all issues do not carry the same moral weight and that the moral obligation to oppose intrinsically evil acts has a special claim on our consciences and our actions. These decisions should take into account a candidate’s commitments, character, integrity,and ability to influence a given issue. In the end, this is a decision to be made by each Catholic guided by a conscience formed by Catholic moral teaching.[/quote]Sorry, I think some of the F's disappeared in this copy/paste...

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1328852565' post='2384727']
I can provide many examples of this bond between a man and a woman (or a man and many women, but that's really multiple marriages rather than one). What examples of different forms of marriages do you know?
[/quote]

forgot to respond to this one. lets see, marriage between children, between adult and child, arranged marriages, marriages with multiple wives/husbands(less commonly), relatively open marriages, bridal kidnapping, marrying animals to exorcise ghosts,etc.

not that these are all great, but they do make it hard to say that marriage has always been a certain way.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1328865110' post='2384775']
forgot to respond to this one. lets see, marriage between children, between adult and child, arranged marriages, marriages with multiple wives/husbands(less commonly), relatively open marriages, bridal kidnapping, marrying animals to exorcise ghosts,etc.

not that these are all great, but they do make it hard to say that marriage has always been a certain way.
[/quote]

these are abominations, not marriages. God made marriage. Man does his own thing sometimes...its called 'sin'.

[dUSt]

To all those that choose to withhold your vote, or vote for a candidate that has zero chance of winning, so you can make some type of moral statement, I just wanted to thank you.

It is amesome Catholics like you that allowed Obama to get the majority of the Catholic vote, because the really bad Catholics certainly did not have a moral dilemma voting for him.

Our chance to have a majority pro-life majority in the supreme court was lost when Obama appointed a pro-abortion judge, so again... thanks for your moral integrity.

[MIKolbe]

Sorry, how selfish of me. Let me embrace intrinsic evil, so all the politicing works out for you.