Rick Santorum Takes Mo, Mn, And Co!

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1329260594' post='2387125']
I didn't say anyone should compel them, I just said it was a moral obligation. It would not necessarily be unjust for a law to require him to provide help, though such a law would have to protect him against frivilous lawsuits if his help failed, for the sake of justice.

also, I put in the caveat "if he is able". if he is financially incapable of providing that assistance, then he has no obligation, of course.

the person who receives the service certainly has a moral obligation to pay if he is able, or as much as he is able.

it's a moral charitable obligation I am talking about, nothing more necessarily. it is immoral for someone with medical training to leave someone to die if they cannot afford some type of life saving care that the person with medical training is fully capable of providing.
[/quote]What if someone walks into a Dr office with a child with a fever? Does the Dr office have to fit them into the schedule along with all the paying customers? What if 20 people come in with sick kids? If you are a Nurse and you have a job at a Dr office, do you have to volunteer 40 hours a week besides your paying job because you have the ability to?

It's easy if they were injured and went to the hospital. They get first aid and immediate care. There are many things that are potentially life threatening if they aren't treated.

I'd like to see people who have these utopian ideals come up with practical proposals.

Food is a basic human right and you don't see restaurants feeding whatever homeless people wander in. Nor do soup kitchens serve baked alaska, or grilled salmon.

[Aloysius]

lol am I supposed to respond to that? what utopian are you arguing with? I just proposed a simple moral principle, for consideration, that those who have medical knowledge and are capable of treating someone who is in grave danger has a moral obligation to do so, regardless of the person's ability to pay. if they're not capable of reasonably doing it, then so be it. I proposed no policy, except to say that any law which required doctors to do as much would not necessarily be an unjust law, so long as that law also protected them against frivilous lawsuits if their attempted help were to fail.

and of course we now have mandates that require everyone to get coverage for a whole bunch of frivilous medical products and procedures, such as contraception or in vitro fertilization. it's nutty. just because one has a moral obligation to help fellow human beings when they are in grave need if one has the necessary expertise and reasonable capability (an obligation which they take upon themselves by going to medical school) does not mean that all of these insane and inane mandated policies are in any way reasonable or just.

[qfnol31]

Everyone thinks I'm a Democrat the moment I start talking about various moral obligations.

I don't think that all moral obligations have to be regulated by the government. Such a good Thomist am I! But what does this make me?

This is a short, flippant way of agreeing with Al.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1329268674' post='2387224']
What if someone walks into a Dr office with a child with a fever? Does the Dr office have to fit them into the schedule along with all the paying customers? What if 20 people come in with sick kids? If you are a Nurse and you have a job at a Dr office, do you have to volunteer 40 hours a week besides your paying job because you have the ability to?

It's easy if they were injured and went to the hospital. They get first aid and immediate care. There are many things that are potentially life threatening if they aren't treated.

I'd like to see people who have these utopian ideals come up with practical proposals.
[/quote]

I dont think you are familiar with the concept of preventative care. Ie, going to see a dentist every year for a clean up/check out costs less than fdrilling and filling later. Treating the little things generally is a good thing, financially.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1329288696' post='2387372']
I dont think you are familiar with the concept of preventative care. Ie, going to see a dentist every year for a clean up/check out costs less than fdrilling and filling later. Treating the little things generally is a good thing, financially.
[/quote]
Depends on the little things that are treated, and the frequency of preventative care. Going to the doctor for a cold is a pointless and expensive exercise.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1329309109' post='2387396']

Depends on the little things that are treated, and the frequency of preventative care. Going to the doctor for a cold is a pointless and expensive exercise.
[/quote]True, but you don't see that happen any more often with the NHS than in the US, in my (limited) experience.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1329313413' post='2387406']
True, but you don't see that happen any more often with the NHS than in the US, in my (limited) experience.
[/quote]
The US is little different. A trip to the ER is free, if one goes about it properly. Ambulance transport in many major cities is a taxi service. I pay less to see a doctor in a clinic than my copay. The 'poor' in the US have medicines I cannot afford. Our system is already socialized.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1329316660' post='2387418']

The US is little different. A trip to the ER is free, if one goes about it properly. Ambulance transport in many major cities is a taxi service. I pay less to see a doctor in a clinic than my copay. The 'poor' in the US have medicines I cannot afford. Our system is already socialized.
[/quote]The system is flawed, in my opinion. For some fields, malpractice insurance means patients don't have access to certain things they should (thinking of VBACs, specifically). I recently had to go to the ER. I have no insurance. I went to a Catholic hospital, both because it's good and because I knew they'd work with me, and they are,thankfully.

[Archaeology cat]

But I'm getting off on a tangent.

Back to the topic at hand. I'm torn. On the one hand, is whether my conscience can allow me to vote for the Republican instead of a third party, but then there's the question of how my conscience will allow me to vote third party if I know the third party has no chance. I must pray a lot about this.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1329318544' post='2387431']
The system is flawed, in my opinion. For some fields, malpractice insurance means patients don't have access to certain things they should (thinking of VBACs, specifically). I recently had to go to the ER. I have no insurance. I went to a Catholic hospital, both because it's good and because I knew they'd work with me, and they are,thankfully.
[/quote]
All systems will be flawed. The answer is not central planning, though.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1329318684' post='2387432']
But I'm getting off on a tangent.

Back to the topic at hand. I'm torn. On the one hand, is whether my conscience can allow me to vote for the Republican instead of a third party, but then there's the question of how my conscience will allow me to vote third party if I know the third party has no chance. I must pray a lot about this.
[/quote]

Actually that's a tangent too but there's a thread for that. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/118762-voting-third-party/

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1329323559' post='2387477']


Actually that's a tangent too but there's a thread for that. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/118762-voting-third-party/
[/quote]Thanks.

[kujo]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1328846913' post='2384691']
I see, a Ron Paul drone.

There is a huge clarity between Santorum and Obama.

But I won't bother as anyone who can look to Ron Paul, the racist, the insane as a standard, I have no time to waste.
[/quote]

I support Ro[color=#000000]mney, but I do like Ron Paul.[/color]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1328846996' post='2384692']
Having a few humans tortured (with Santorum as president) is loads better than losing a million human beings per year as we are doing now (Obama).
[/quote]

One of the least-Catholic things ever said on here...


[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1328900026' post='2384988']
I am not responsible for the evils of others. I refuse to vote for people I find abhorrent, in a system that I believe is inherently morally destitute, to make someone else feel better about themselves.

I will not condone torture and claim "national security" to make it sound better.

I will not condone the perpetual war machine simply because DEMOCRACY HERP DERP. Americans are not the best people simply by virtue of having been spawned on a particular plot of land. Others are not inferior because they don't subscribe to our cultural mores.

"Catholics like me" didn't [b][i]allow[/i][/b] Obama to do a beaver dam thing. Catholics like me believe in something and choose not to compromise. Catholics like me try to live with integrity. Catholics like me believe that the cafeteria line doesn't just have liberals picking and choosing from it. Catholics like me think it takes a whole lot more than a Virgin Mary t-shirt to make someone Catholic.

Think you know my soul? Think you understand my motivations? Well congratulations on that. I'm glad you seem to have such deep perception. I, on the other hand, don't choose to subscribe blame for the state of the world on someone who would not vote for abominable politics when guided by a well-formed and active conscience. You want to blame someone? Try blaming the people that voted. All those "bad Catholics" that didn't feel a qualm about voting for a candidate who stands for everything that their faith opposes.

The rarified air you're breathing must be pretty nice, but I refuse to betray my own conscience, no matter how many consdescending sneers it gets me.
[/quote]

Great post!

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1328908428' post='2385132']
I was pointing out that abortion and gay marriage are doing far more damage to this country than torture.
[/quote]

One of the craziest things that I have ever read in [color=#000000]my life![/color]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1328909726' post='2385139']
<use crazy hypothetical situation while making a poor analogy to the actual topic at hand>

<use the ends to justify the means>

<call it 'reason'>

<forget to mention this mentality is why we are in the mess in the first place>
got it.
[/quote]

This is Phat[color=#000000]mass logic 101[/color]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1328921923' post='2385232']
I believe I remember Jesus saying something about "fear not the one who can destroy the body but rather the one that can send you to Gehenna".
[/quote]

LOL...yeah, this is a great guide for policy. "Hey, Jesus said it's no big deal, so..."

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1329181964' post='2386625']
Apparently has the same voting record glasses as every other Santorum supporter. When I need a sweater-vest wearing psycho to increase the government's child ownership programs and start wars, I'll give that guy a call. Santorum is a big-government, nanny-state mercantilist lunatic that thinks inflation is necessary for the economy to grow.
[/quote]

Will you be [color=#000000]my best friend? Seriously, dude. You and I are pretty si[/color][color=#000000]mpatico when it co[/color][color=#000000]mes to this stuff![/color]

[Winchester]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1328846913' post='2384691']
I see, a Ron Paul drone.

There is a huge clarity between Santorum and Obama.

But I won't bother as anyone who can look to Ron Paul, the racist, the insane as a standard, I have no [s]time to waste[/s] real depth of understanding regarding these issues, but there's something about newsletters, so I will use that.
[/quote]
fxd

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1328846996' post='2384692']
Having a few humans tortured (with Santorum as president) is loads better than losing a million human beings per year as we are doing now (Obama).[/quote]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1329328318' post='2387521']
...One of the least-Catholic things ever said on here...[/quote]

How and why?

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1328908428' post='2385132']
I was pointing out that abortion and gay marriage are doing far more damage to this country than torture. [/quote]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1329328318' post='2387521']
One of the craziest things that I have ever read in [color=#000000]my life![/quote][/color]

The Church seems pretty serious in the matter. They were right about the effects of the pill on society...I suspect the same on gay marriage/civil unions.

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html[/url]


To clarify because some have already misinterpreted me, I do believe torture is "good." I follow the Church. And as a voting Catholic, I am allowed to vote for imperfect people as long as I vote for the one doing the least damage. Gay marriage and abortion do much more damage to this country than a few dozen people being tortured.