Rick Santorum Takes Mo, Mn, And Co!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1329182861' post='2386637']
Write in Ron Paul, any other Libby, the Pope, or Mickey flooping Mouse; it doesn't really matter.

The result will be the same - four more years of Dear Leader.and Marxist banana republic-style dictatorship, while you slap yourself on your backs for your superior righteousness.
[/quote]
I wasn't aware you were a consequentialist.

[Socrates]

Your face is [color=#282828]consequentialist.[/color]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1329183103' post='2386642']
Your face is [color=#282828]consequentialist.[/color]
[/quote]
no u

[qfnol31]

Any time you stick an -ism on it, it just sounds bad.

[right]Wait...[/right]

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1329183602' post='2386646']
Any time you stick an -ism on it, it just sounds bad.

[right]Wait...[/right]
[/quote]

Catholic-ism.

yup.

[Winchester]

[img]http://www.freshstation.org/gallery/var/albums/Fun-Ays/00194-Owned-Connect4.jpg?m=1289420618[/img]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1329186129' post='2386674']
[img]http://www.freshstation.org/gallery/var/albums/Fun-Ays/00194-Owned-Connect4.jpg?m=1289420618[/img]
[/quote]

Why is he dropping another red chip in? He already has connect 4 diagonally, from the lower right corner up to the middle. These guys don't know how to play the game.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1329164645' post='2386490']
Not really. I have a right to carry a weapon, as well. I have a right to property. This does not create any obligation for others to provide me these things. This is yet another bad argument we've allowed people to use. I suggest cutting the argument off by agreeing that it is a right, but that there is no right to force people to provide healthcare.
[/quote]

The author was saying by making health care a right, you create a slave class to sustain that right. It creates an undue obligation. I think we can all agree access to health care is a right, but health care services is not.

[Winchester]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1329238894' post='2386924']
The author was saying by making health care a right, you create a slave class to sustain that right. It creates an undue obligation. I think we can all agree access to health care is a right, but health care services is not.
[/quote]
Fair enough.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1329238894' post='2386924']I think we can all agree access to health care is a right, but health care services is not.
[/quote]I don't think we can all agree to that, because it's debatable what "acess to health care" is defined to be. Does it mean that anyone can get a kidney transplant for free? Does it mean I can go every month to a Doctor for a health check up or every time I have an ache or runny nose for free? Does it mean I can demand a complet body MRI yearly to screen for tumors, growths, or other physical anomalies? Does it mean a Catholic has to help pay for someone else's vasectomy, tubal ligation, or abortion? Does it mean I have to pay for someone's fertility enhancement or in-vitro fertilization?

There has to be restrictions and limits of some kind and what those may be and how they are implemented is what's debatable, but it's all going to be some sort of restriction on access.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1329243660' post='2386982']
I don't think we can all agree to that, because it's debatable what "acess to health care" is defined to be. Does it mean that anyone can get a kidney transplant for free? Does it mean I can go every month to a Doctor for a health check up or every time I have an ache or runny nose for free? Does it mean I can demand a complet body MRI yearly to screen for tumors, growths, or other physical anomalies? Does it mean a Catholic has to help pay for someone else's vasectomy, tubal ligation, or abortion? Does it mean I have to pay for someone's fertility enhancement or in-vitro fertilization?

There has to be restrictions and limits of some kind and what those may be and how they are implemented is what's debatable, but it's all going to be some sort of restriction on access.
[/quote]
I believe he means that no third party can interfere in that right to access.

[Aloysius]

basically, everyone has the right to "the pursuit of healthcare"

on the flip side, doctors have a moral obligation to assist anyone who presents themselves to them in grave need, if they are able, regardless of their ability to pay. you take on that responsibility when you learn medicine, IMO.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1329258953' post='2387098']
basically, everyone has the right to "the pursuit of healthcare"

on the flip side, doctors have a moral obligation to assist anyone who presents themselves to them in grave need, if they are able, regardless of their ability to pay. you take on that responsibility when you learn medicine, IMO.
[/quote]
Does that mean someone can use force to compel them to provide that care? Where does that obligation end? Must a doctor cause himself serious financial harm? How about his employees, if he runs his own office? And the person in grave need, is he not obliged to make some manner of restitution?

[Aloysius]

I didn't say anyone should compel them, I just said it was a moral obligation. It would not necessarily be unjust for a law to require him to provide help, though such a law would have to protect him against frivilous lawsuits if his help failed, for the sake of justice.

also, I put in the caveat "if he is able". if he is financially incapable of providing that assistance, then he has no obligation, of course.

the person who receives the service certainly has a moral obligation to pay if he is able, or as much as he is able.

it's a moral charitable obligation I am talking about, nothing more necessarily. it is immoral for someone with medical training to leave someone to die if they cannot afford some type of life saving care that the person with medical training is fully capable of providing.

[Winchester]

It's immoral unless it would cause harm to the person trained. No one is morally compelled to cause himself harm. (I'd say it would probably have to be serious harm, but that's merely opinion).