MIKolbe Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1328908428' post='2385132'] This is not Catholic voting, and this is not Catholic responsibility. This is waiting for Jesus to run for president. [/quote] Wrong, this is voting for someone who is not perfect, but does not make me embrace intrinsic evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Both gangs want to kill people, though. And both gangs want to steal cars. One gang thinks there should be some laws preventing the killing of some people within gang territory, but support the killing of people outside of gang territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 someone should move this to the debate table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Election season and Lent is coming...hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1328907180' post='2385119'] An analogy... I am with a group of bad thugs. 1/2 the thugs want to steal a car. 1/2 the thugs want to go kill some homeless people. I am the deciding vote. One of the two things is going to happen no matter what. I can vote to steal a car: a car gets stolen, but nobody is murdered. I can [b]not[/b] vote: there is a 50/50 chance of people being murdered, and even if they are not, the car gets stolen anyway. [b]My[/b] conscience tells me to protect the lives of those people. We have different formed consciences. I just tend to believe mine implements a better use of reason. [/quote] My conscience tells me not to hang out with thugs, thus avoiding placing myself in such a particular sticky wicket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1328908428' post='2385132'] I was pointing out that abortion and gay marriage are doing far more damage to this country than torture. I notice you keep ignoring abortion and pretend I am only comparing gay marriage and torture. This is false. If you wish to argue my point, argue my full position, and not a straw-man of it. Please explain to me why the issue of torture trumps the current issues of abortion and gay marriage in the United States according to Catholic voting principles. [/quote] and i was pointing out that the idea that 2 dudes being able to marry is doing more damage to the country than state sponsored torture is incredibly absurd. I am ignoring abortion because i was never talking about abortion, dont try to derail on me thank you. there are other people who are more strongly against abortion to vote for, you dont get to keep that as a "torture is ok because this is the only guy against abortion" even if that position would be about as anti life and hypocritical as being against abortion but supporting bombing abortion clinics and murdering providers as they sleep. I dont know about your catholic voting principles(i didnt see any imprimatur in that article, nor is it as solidly canonical as the sections of the CC and writings of recent Popes others have posted here denouncing torture as a crime against humanity in every circumstance), but as soon as you can show me the thousands of people burned, maimed, mentally broken and dead out of negligence that have been caused by gay marriage, then i will be ok with you stating Gay Marriage is worse than torture. [quote] Also you say my views on torture are contrary to the Church. Really? Where did I say torture was good.....much less justified in some circumstances? [/quote] you seem to think that torture is not an important thing to consider in politics... [quote] It seems you and some others are waiting for a pre-appointed saint to run for the presidency, and then you will vote for that person and for only such a person. In this case, you will never vote in your lifetime and will let people like Rick Santorum....people who can do much good with very little bad.....lose because of one minor issue. [/quote] you assume much, and wrongly. [quote] This is not Catholic voting, and this is not Catholic responsibility. This is waiting for Jesus to run for president. [/quote] oh if only there was someone prolife, anti torture, anti interventionist war, politically conservative to vote for... oh right, too bad the Catechism #58503b says "thou shall not vote for ron paul" [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1328907180' post='2385119'] An analogy... I am with a group of bad thugs. 1/2 the thugs want to steal a car. 1/2 the thugs want to go kill some homeless people. I am the deciding vote. One of the two things is going to happen no matter what. I can vote to steal a car: a car gets stolen, but nobody is murdered. I can [b]not[/b] vote: there is a 50/50 chance of people being murdered, and even if they are not, the car gets stolen anyway. [b]My[/b] conscience tells me to protect the lives of those people. We have different formed consciences. I just tend to believe mine implements a better use of reason. [/quote] OR alternatively, dont be in a gang that wants to murder and steal. or if you are, be an undercover cop about to bust the lot of them. or if you are just a dumb criminal that had a change of heart, either leave to take yourself away from danger of mortal sin, and hurting others, or martyr yourself removing dangerous criminals from the world. none of those options include standingly idly by and helping to commit crimes. you would think these sort of bad analogies would be familiar to someone who has undoubtedly heard "but these kids will have premarital sex anyways, you can either choose 1) condoms or 2) abortion". what answer could you in good conscience, as a catholic, give to that scenario ? neither. Edited February 10, 2012 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Moving.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1328909439' post='2385136'] This is just an example of "the ends justify the means". And they don't. Let me give you another scenario: You've been kidnapped somewhere, and are unable to escape. Your captors don't want to kill you; they want you to kill yourself. They want it so much, in fact, that they're willing to kill your family if you don't kill yourself. And they tell you as much. You can be absolutely certain that if you don't kill yourself, they [b]will[/b] kill your familiy. What do you do? Of course the correct course of action is clear, but I wonder how many here would know it...? [/quote]This is very different than the ends justify the means. First off, American politics continue no matter what. You can try to change the outcome or you can try to change the system. Only one of these is a viable option at this moment. Furthermore, so long as a greater evil is present we have an obligation to prevent it. Second, sometimes when faced with several bad choices we must choose the best option. Don't fool yourself into saying that we are only voting for a candidate. I've addressed this issue above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1328858629' post='2384754'] I would rather be gay married to some dude against my will than tortured and mutilated. [/quote] Nick, Being gay married against my will to a dude IS torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1328911861' post='2385172'] and i was pointing out that the idea that 2 dudes being able to marry is doing more damage to the country than state sponsored torture is incredibly absurd. [/quote] I believe I remember Jesus saying something about "fear not the one who can destroy the body but rather the one that can send you to Gehenna". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1328737602' post='2383923'] Someone has that in his/her signature on here. I think it's great! [/quote]That would be me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1328921804' post='2385230'] Nick, Being gay married against my will to a dude IS torture. [/quote] agreed, but i dont see anyone saying that is what will happen. is bob and ted being married torture to you as well? [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1328921923' post='2385232'] I believe I remember Jesus saying something about "fear not the one who can destroy the body but rather the one that can send you to Gehenna". [/quote] well, we seem to be jumping all over the place on this one. euthanasia and abortion both destroy the body and the soul(of people doing it, allowing it), and torture destroys the body and the soul(of the people doing it, allowing it) gay marriage just seems to "destroy the soul" of the dudes getting married. unless someone wants to contest that torture destroys the soul as much as other violent acts against humanity... its not even an close match. Edited February 11, 2012 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 That's two people that said my analogy was bad, but did not explain why. I will continue to insist that it is a good analogy until it is proven not to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1328927088' post='2385253'] That's two people that said my analogy was bad, but did not explain why. I will continue to insist that it is a good analogy until it is proven not to be. [/quote]I don't think it was a good analogy. I think it was too nice of a choice. I was thinking about this in the car: the pun was completely unintentional. I think it's more like a bomb with 1000 wires is set to go off in a public place and kill many innocent people. You are in the vicinity of the bomb and can do one of four things: 1) Protest the bomb and say we need to make sure that bombs like this can never be placed here again, trying to change the makeup of the place. The bomb will still go off. 2) Try to figure out exactly which wire to cut. Only one will work so you have a 1-1000 chance of cutting the correct one. 3) Cause the bomb to go off because you really want this to happen anyways. 4) Try to run with the bomb as far away as you can, knowing that in the end people will still die, but at least this way the casualties will be minimized. (5) Not be present in the bomb situation. Surprise! You're not an American...) J/K, I liked your analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1328917972' post='2385209'] This is very different than the ends justify the means. First off, American politics continue no matter what. You can try to change the outcome or you can try to change the system. Only one of these is a viable option at this moment. Furthermore, so long as a greater evil is present we have an obligation to prevent it. Second, sometimes when faced with several bad choices we must choose the best option. Don't fool yourself into saying that we are only voting for a candidate. I've addressed this issue above. [/quote] What is very different? The example that dust gave? Because that's what I was responding to. I'll grant that voting is not the same thing, but dust's argument makes no sense in this case. I agree, we are not voting for a candidate. But I still think every action has a black and white moral answer - use the 3 conditions for a morally viable action, and you'll have your answer. Just make sure you apply them properly. I do agree with the basic premise that not voting for the republican party is equal to voting for the democratic party. Dust, the problem with your analogy is that it's not the same thing, when considering the conditions for a moral action, which are 3:[list=1] [*]The action itself must be not be morally wrong [*]The end goal of the action must not be morally wrong [*]The conditions involved in the action must not make it morally wrong. [/list] The problem that most people don't get with voting is with #1. They see the action itself as voting for someone who supports something that a Catholic in good conscience cannot support. That's really not the case. In your analogy, here are the categories:[list=1] [*]Action: stealing a car - which is always wrong [*]Goal: avoiding a greater evil, which is good [*]Conditions: Lesser of 2 evils, which makes it good. [/list] Still, you have 1 out of 3 bad, so the act is not morally acceptable. With voting, it's different:[list=1] [*]Action: [i][b]Voting [/b][/i]- which is good (The action itself doesn't include what the candidate supports or doesn't support - that's part of the #3, the conditions) [*]Goal: Keeping an incredibly bad person out of office - avoiding the greater evil - this is also good [*]Conditions: the candidate you vote for waffles from time to time between supporting and not supporting a bad thing - or even supports a bad thing that isn't as bad as what the other candidate supports. Other condition: the other candidate supports something REALLY evil. More conditions: if you don't vote, it's more likely that the really evil guy will win. If you don't vote for either, it's more likely that the really evil guy will win. The BEST way to avoid letting the really evil guy win is to vote for the shaky republican, who you don't fully support. [/list] I won't go so far as to say that not voting for the Republican is a sin by omission, because that would necessitate an intellectual capacity that I am not capable of. Nor will I say that it's a sin to vote for the Republican, because clearly here it's a matter of the conditions surrounding the entire ordeal, and not the action itself. I think there are so many conditions involved that only God truly knows the proper course of action in voting for such people. And only God could be aware of all the conditions. God, and maybe saints and angels. [edited for grammer] Edited February 11, 2012 by fides' Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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