The Non-Negotiables

[Hubertus]

Inspired by the thread about the USCCB--I'm putting it in debate since I don't know if it will turn into one or not. My question is this: what are the non-negotiable issues as you know them, how many are there, and where do they come from? I know there are typically 5, but I'm looking for a Church-official source. My purpose is to convince a Catholic friend that she needs to vote pro-life, which, while she technically calls herself pro-life, she isn't too willing to do because she thinks there are "more important issues" and that we have to look at the "big picture," etc..

Edited February 7, 2012 by Hubertus

[Basilisa Marie]

In 2008, the pope addressed the European People's Party with this:

[quote][color=#990000][font=Times,]As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the principal focus of her interventions in the public arena is the protection and promotion of the dignity of the person, and she is thereby consciously drawing particular attention to principles which are not negotiable.[/font][/color]

[color=#990000][font=Times,]Among these the following emerge clearly today:[/font][/color]

[font=Times,]- protection of life in all its stages, from the first moment of conception until natural death;[/font]


[font=Times,]- recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family - [u]as a union between a man and a woman based on marriage[/u] - and its defense from attempts to make it juridically equivalent to radically different forms of union which in reality harm it and contribute to its destabilization, obscuring its particular character and its irreplaceable social role;[/font]

[font=Times,]- the protection of the right of parents to educate their children.[/font]

[color=#990000][font=Times,]These principles are not truths of faith, even though they receive further light and confirmation from faith; they are inscribed in human nature itself and therefore they are common to all humanity.[/font][/color]

[color=#990000][font=Times,]The Church’s action in promoting them is therefore not confessional in character, but is addressed to all people, prescinding from any religious affiliation they may have. On the contrary, [/font][/color][font=Times,]such action is all the more necessary the more these principles are denied or misunderstood, because this constitutes an offence against the truth of the human person, a grave wound inflicted onto justice itself.[/font][/quote]


A word of advice, though. Throwing Church-official sources at her probably won't convince her that you're right. You'd probably be better off trying to talk to her, try to understand why she thinks certain issues are more important, and then trying to show her that even though her issues are also important, particular life issues are a bit more fundamental.

[Hubertus]

This is most helpful, thank you! Now is this the first time we see anything like non-negotiable conditions for the government being so explicitly stated by the Church?

As for my friend, I think she is actually pretty receptive to the Church's teachings. She has recently been pondering the religious life, in fact. I think she is only justifying not voting pro-life/pro-traditional-marriage because she hasn't heard anything as explicit as this from the Church. And from our discussions it seems she has developed this elaborate way to rationalize these things in her mind because she wants to be loving and open-minded towards her friends, several of whom are pro-choice and pro-gay-rights, and she doesn't know how to approach them charitably with the belief that what they are doing/supporting is wrong.

[catholicinsd]

[quote]- the protection of the right of parents to educate their children.[/quote]

While I realize education starts at home, I am keenly aware most episodes of "I didn't know I was Pregnant" usually involve a home-schooling situation and often a mobile home.

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328666858' post='2383358']


While I realize education starts at home, I am keenly aware most episodes of "I didn't know I was Pregnant" usually involve a home-schooling situation and often a mobile home.
[/quote]

Unless you have had firsthand experience, I'm not sure how you can be "keenly aware". Such shows generally distort our perception of the frequency of such incidents. For example, you seemingly have no clue of the extreme benefit homeschooling generally has on the sense morality among its adherents.

Edited for spelling.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Deus_te_Amat

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1328667191' post='2383365']
Unless you have had firsthand experience, I'm not sure how you can be "keenly aware". Such shows generally distort our perception of the frequency of such incidents. For example, you seemingly have no clue of the extreme benefit homeschooling generally has on the sense morality among its adherence.
[/quote]

I once worked with a gentleman, who had to two jobs to support his uneducated, but home-schooling wife. One day, she went to the ER, thinking she had kidney stones or something, but she came back with kid #4.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1328667191' post='2383365']
Unless you have had firsthand experience, I'm not sure how you can be "keenly aware". Such shows generally distort our perception of the frequency of such incidents. For example, you seemingly have no clue of the extreme benefit homeschooling generally has on the sense morality among its adherents.

Edited for spelling.
[/quote]
He's an erudite liberal from cosmopolitan South Dakota. He clearly has been cultivated to be far removed from the trite minutiae of the cornpone and their pastoral lives.

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328667488' post='2383374']


I once worked with a gentleman, who had to two jobs to support his uneducated, but home-schooling wife. One day, she went to the ER, thinking she had kidney stones or something, but she came back with kid #4.
[/quote]

There is a tv show about that, too. Sometimes, a woman's body acts the same way when pregnant as it does when she's not. If she had other kids previously, it's hard to think that she would not have recognized the movements for any other reason.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' timestamp='1328668024' post='2383387']
There is a tv show about that, too. Sometimes, a woman's body acts the same way when pregnant as it does when she's not. If she had other kids previously, it's hard to think that she would not have recognized the movements for any other reason.
[/quote]

Well, that and she went clothes shopping at a tent store.

[MIKolbe]

you 2 need a room.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328667488' post='2383374'] his uneducated, but home-schooling wife.
[/quote]


[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328668688' post='2383393']very disparaging
[/quote]

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328666858' post='2383358']
While I realize education starts at home, I am keenly aware most episodes of "I didn't know I was Pregnant" usually involve a home-schooling situation and often a mobile home.
[/quote]


[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328668688' post='2383393']very disparaging
[/quote]

[Hubertus]

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328666858' post='2383358']
While I realize education starts at home, I am keenly aware most episodes of "I didn't know I was Pregnant" usually involve a home-schooling situation and often a mobile home.
[/quote]
[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328667488' post='2383374']
I once worked with a gentleman, who had to two jobs to support his uneducated, but home-schooling wife. One day, she went to the ER, thinking she had kidney stones or something, but she came back with kid #4.
[/quote]
[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328668812' post='2383397']
Well, that and she went clothes shopping at a tent store.
[/quote]
Not sure if serious, or just trolling...

While I realize that the TV is a good place on which to base generalizations, I am keenly aware that neither I nor any of my old homeschooled friends lived in mobile homes, nor did our parents experience any sudden and unexpected births, nor did we shop at tent stores, nor did I even know that there was such a thing as a store entirely devoted to the peddling of tents (but maybe that's because of my homeschool education, I should probably watch more TV), nor did my dad have two jobs, etc etc.. Not that there is anything wrong with that lifestyle.

I actually went through both home school and public school at different times, and being in college now, I'm starting to see the fruits of my respective labors. I wish I had been homeschooled longer.


Edit: Oh, wow! I just saw the thread for him in Open Mic. Moving on now...

Edited February 8, 2012 by Hubertus

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1328625169' post='2382999']
Inspired by the thread about the USCCB--I'm putting it in debate since I don't know if it will turn into one or not. My question is this: what are the non-negotiable issues as you know them, how many are there, and where do they come from? I know there are typically 5, but I'm looking for a Church-official source. My purpose is to convince a Catholic friend that she needs to vote pro-life, which, while she technically calls herself pro-life, she isn't too willing to do because she thinks there are "more important issues" and that we have to look at the "big picture," etc..
[/quote]


What does the Church teach that is intrinsically evil?

Theses are the issues that are at the forefront since they can never be justified.

-abortion
-contraception
-euthanasia
-gay marriage

and I'm missing something.

After you realize this list, you ask yourself, how many lives are affected by abortion?

How many lives are affected by contraception?

How many...etc


This is how you weigh the importance of each issue.

You can also do the same with other issues that are not intrinsically evil such as the death penalty, war, starvation, etc.



When you realize that virtually no one dies of hunger in the US, about 100 are executed on death row per year, and 1,000,000 unborn are taken out....it kinda makes the abortion issue huge.


Tell her this. In a span of 5 or so years, Hitler killed 6 million Jews. Since 1973, America has terminated 54 million unborn lives. Since 1973, how many Americans have died of hunger? How many guilty people have been put on death row? How many innocent on death row?


[b]I look at the 54 million total and the annual reliable 1 million. That picture is the big picture. Everything else is small potatoes. Dare her to make the case against 1 million human lives.[/b]

[Basilisa Marie]

Yes, however...at the risk of having pictures of dead babies thrown in my face [i]again...[/i]

Today, there is no situation in the United States today where the death penalty is morally justifiable according to Church teaching.

We also have to consider the reality of what a politician is going to do in the face of the millions dying from abortion every year. A candidate that merely pays lip service to pro-life causes but doesn't DO ANYTHING to promote them is almost as bad as someone who promotes them. Many Republican candidates today don't actually DO anything legislatively to further the pro-life cause - they're really only pro-life because that's the general party line.

Is it truly better to have a candidate in office that is pro-life only in name, but doesn't do anything to end abortion in our country than it is to have someone who is similarly lukewarm but pro-choice, but does much to promote the social welfare of the poor? I'm not talking about any particular candidates at all, just in hypotheticals. All I'm trying to say is that while it's perfectly moral and good for the abortion cause to be primary, we have to also consider the reality of a candidate's record, and how much good he or she will ACTUALLY DO to promote life issues. For example, despite the fact that he shot up our national debt, one could argue that it was good that Bush became president, because he was able to appoint good judges to the Supreme Court.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1328650477' post='2383196']
This is most helpful, thank you! Now is this the first time we see anything like non-negotiable conditions for the government being so explicitly stated by the Church?

As for my friend, I think she is actually pretty receptive to the Church's teachings. She has recently been pondering the religious life, in fact.[b] I think she is only justifying not voting pro-life/pro-traditional-marriage because she hasn't heard anything as explicit as this from the Church.[/b] And from our discussions it seems she has developed this elaborate way to rationalize these things in her mind because she wants to be loving and open-minded towards her friends, several of whom are pro-choice and pro-gay-rights, and she doesn't know how to approach them charitably with the belief that what they are doing/supporting is wrong.
[/quote]

Not to be disrespectful, but what rock has she been living under?

And this is the Pope talking...there's a difference between that and an official Church document or position. Still super important, but I think it might be good to at least acknowledge that there's a distinction.