The More Planned Parenthood Speaks Up. The More We See The Vitriol

[homeschoolmom]

I'm moving this.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1328731170' post='2383826']
Yes, this was my point exactly.
[/quote]

And even many years later, I still have never disagreed with you on anything. Kindred spirits, ftw.

Here's the thing for me about Planned Parenthood, the abortion debate, and anything in that vein. Yes, PP was founded on degrading, manipulative and hateful values. Yes, some of their employees willfully persuade pregnant women, often minorities, to abort. And yes, there is pressure at the corporate level to increase the number of abortions, and therefore profits.

But to say across the board that PP is an evil organization that does no good is just silly. To demonize them [i]as a whole[/i] is completely unfair, because there are so many women out there who have gotten help -- true healthcare -- that they would otherwise never had access to.

That doesn't exonerate PP for the heinous things they did in the past and still do today. I will never support Planned Parenthood and hope for the day they change their ways. I have an intense dislike for them. But I'll never make blanket statements about them.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328731227' post='2383828']
That's a link to Martin Luther King Jr's words. Yes, it's on a Planned Parenthood website but unless you are contending that the speech is fabricated then I don't see how that matters. Regardless, I didnt say I haven't cited Planned Parenthood at all. I said I didn't cite Planned Parenthood in response to Alveda's claim about Martin Luther. Which is indisputably true.


Have I been condescending to you? If so, it hasn't been intentional and I apologize. If not, then I would appreciate it if you returned the favor and didn't call me 'sunshine'.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I apologize for the sunshine comment. I guess I misread or misunderstood your claim of not citing PP

[Jaime]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328730971' post='2383820']
[url="http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/11/3/gpr110302.html"]http://www.guttmache.../gpr110302.html[/url]
[/quote]

Ok I again apologize for being snarky with you Hasan. But I'm very serious when I say this. You question the reliability of Alveda King when she says something about her uncle. Fine there is probably a family bias there. I'm not 100% sure that MLK wasn't prochoice.


However, when you quote organizations that were created by Planned Parenthood to show an "unbiased" report that puts Planned Parenthood in a favorable light, I have to respectfully call you out on it. Guttmacher Institute was under the command of PP. Alan Guttmacher was the PRESIDENT of Planned Parenthood!

You honestly think you've found an unbiased source?

http://www.guttmacher.org/about/history.html

[Jaime]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1328731954' post='2383841']
And even many years later, I still have never disagreed with you on anything. Kindred spirits, ftw.

Here's the thing for me about Planned Parenthood, the abortion debate, and anything in that vein. Yes, PP was founded on degrading, manipulative and hateful values. Yes, some of their employees willfully persuade pregnant women, often minorities, to abort. And yes, there is pressure at the corporate level to increase the number of abortions, and therefore profits.

But to say across the board that PP is an evil organization that does no good is just silly. To demonize them [i]as a whole[/i] is completely unfair, because there are so many women out there who have gotten help -- true healthcare -- that they would otherwise never had access to.

That doesn't exonerate PP for the heinous things they did in the past and still do today. I will never support Planned Parenthood and hope for the day they change their ways. I have an intense dislike for them. But I'll never make blanket statements about them.
[/quote]

It's not unfair Missy. People on this phorum have called for the boycott of companies that have have done less damage to our world. Hugh Hefner Foundation gives millions to the Red Cross, Feed America and Oxfam. I will make the blanket statement that he exploits women.

The reality is that my pro-life center provided free STD testing as well as other health services. What we didn't provide, we found that service at no cost to the woman. Plus, my center stuck around for support if the woman was pregnant. Sometimes the support would be ongoing for years. What's my point? What PP may provide minimally as healthcare can be found for free.

Let's not forget how they are not providing breast screenings. Their $700k grant was for just that. Not to run a referral service.

[dominicansoul]

PP should never be praised. Even the devil can appear in the form of a beautiful angel.......

[4588686]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1328733802' post='2383873']
Fair enough. I apologize for the sunshine comment. I guess I misread or misunderstood your claim of not citing PP
[/quote]

And I apologize too. I feel that I've been snarky as well.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1328731954' post='2383841']
And even many years later, I still have never disagreed with you on anything. Kindred spirits, ftw.

Here's the thing for me about Planned Parenthood, the abortion debate, and anything in that vein. Yes, PP was founded on degrading, manipulative and hateful values. Yes, some of their employees willfully persuade pregnant women, often minorities, to abort. And yes, there is pressure at the corporate level to increase the number of abortions, and therefore profits.

But to say across the board that PP is an evil organization that does no good is just silly. To demonize them [i]as a whole[/i] is completely unfair, because there are so many women out there who have gotten help -- true healthcare -- that they would otherwise never had access to.
[/quote]
Using that criteria, we should never call [i]any[/i] organization evil, as[i] every[/i] human organization is made up of "complex people" who do both good and evil.

And that would include the Communist Party, the KKK, and that infamous 1930s/40s German political party whose name we dare not mention lest the Furies swoop down from the heavens shrieking "Godwin's Law!"
Heck, heretical as this statement might be on Phatmass, it would even include the Republican Party.

However, I think it is right and fitting to say call any organization that continuously engages in mass-murder of innocent babies "evil."


While the "old-timers" on here will know that I'm far from an across-the-board Jaime yes-man, everything he's said in this thread has been right on the money.

Margaret Sanger's support of racist eugenics is not some wild revisionist conspiracy theory, but part of the established historical record which can by found by anyone willing to do a little research, though it's understandable that PP does not like to play up this part of their history.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Socrates

[Ice_nine]

I just think we don't need to invoke the racism of the Planned Parenthood agenda to point out all the harm and damage they do. I haven't done enough research from both sides to assess the situation fairly, but honestly I don't think it's entirely necessary. I can make an argument about how terrible this organization is and all the harm they do, whether or not they're racist.

To me it seems like the crux of the issue is utilitarianism, and as we know this is not a problem confined to this one organization, but is a widespread issue that has permeated into nearly every facet of society.

While at first I wanted to believe PP was committing genocide because it could give the pro-life side some leverage, I've admitted that my research was cursory at best. And I suppose I could do a more intensive and unbiased investigation, but I'd rather call them out for the croutons they readily admit to.

Make sense? I'm just thinking aloud

[Jaime]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1328844227' post='2384652']
I just think we don't need to invoke the racism of the Planned Parenthood agenda to point out all the harm and damage they do. I haven't done enough research from both sides to assess the situation fairly, but honestly I don't think it's entirely necessary. I can make an argument about how terrible this organization is and all the harm they do, whether or not they're racist.

To me it seems like the crux of the issue is utilitarianism, and as we know this is not a problem confined to this one organization, but is a widespread issue that has permeated into nearly every facet of society.

While at first I wanted to believe PP was committing genocide because it could give the pro-life side some leverage, I've admitted that my research was cursory at best. And I suppose I could do a more intensive and unbiased investigation, but I'd rather call them out for the croutons they readily admit to.

Make sense? I'm just thinking aloud
[/quote]

Why not call out the racism? If my sister is a larger target because she's african american, why not call it out? I completely agree that not everyone in Planned Parenthood is aware of the racist motives of the organization. But if it's true, why shouldn't I tell them? if the facts are there, I don't think being silent about it helps the cause.

[Ice_nine]

well because, erm, I don't know that PP exists to promulgate a genocide against black people. There's evidence on both sides, and it's really hard/nearly impossible to get an unbiased source to sort out these allegations of racism. It's clear that in its inception the organization held some pretty contemptible ideas, but do those ideas still exist within the org today? Or are we looking for evidence to assimilate within the schema of Planned Parenthood being the ultimate evil.

PP isn't an abominable organization because it's racist (although it would be terrible if they really are). PP is horrible because it harms children, women, men and because it espouses an elitist utilitarian ethic that threatens the dignity of humanity everywhere, and they operate under the guise of compassion. Whether or not there's racism, that's not the primary problem. There may indeed be racism, and you're free to call it out.

I only think its tangential and tbh there are some holes that have been poked through the genocide theory that haven't been accounted for imo.

[Jaime]

please Show me the holes.

[Ice_nine]

that's so much work though wahhhh

in short:
How can we be sure that PP is motivated by race, rather than socioeconomic status? I tend to think the utilitarian principle better fits the latter (poor people can't afford to live, therefore their lives are not necessary etc).

I'm not arguing with you really though. You are free to say what you will on the matter. I was not even trying to suggest you stop making your argument, nor was I making an argument that eugenics doesn't have anything to do with PP.

I'm with you. PP is screwed up. There's plenty of material to work with though to demonstrate how screwed up they are without going into the genocide theory with [i]the stuff that they openly admit to and publish[/i].

You're free to disagree. I think out loud on the internet lots. Probs shouldn't post as much as I do. Ooops. I think sometimes there is an assumption that when people "debate" on the internet they hold really strongly to one position and vehemently denounce the opposing side, but here I'm just thinking out loud.

Silly me. Should keep them words in my head sometimes