Marie-Therese Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Well, I have to be honest, I admit that I have mixed feelings. I'd like to state right up front that I am pro-life (anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-war) and that I hold no views in regard to PP which oppose the Church. However, I do have personal knowledge of experiences with PP that were very positive and had nothing at all to do with contraception or abortion. A friend of mine was date-raped in her late teens and was subsequently infected with HPV because of the assault. She went to PP for assistance (NOT for contraception) because she did not report the assault and did not want her family to know. She is an upper middle class caucasian female and not of the typical PP demographic. The PP she went to provided her with exams, STD testing and counselling. She continued to follow up through the subsequent years with PP and three years after her assault she was found to have cervical cancer (related to the HPV infection). The PP provided all her pap smears, and when the cancerous cells were detected, she was referred immediately to an oncologist, who treated her and ultimately saved her life. She is now in her late 30s and is cancer free. While I am fully familiar with the origins of PP, and I understand completely the corporatized abortion industry, I would like to simply state that there are cases where PP has provided legitimately important medical care to women that had nothing to do with contraceptives or abortion services. I am not in any way a supporter of PP as an entity; what I would rather see is more clinics that provided services similar in nature to what my friend received. Like I said, this is not a pro-PP post, so I hope that no one tries to give me a lecture on my moral ambiguity. I am simply giving an example of my firsthand knowledge of some of the valuable things that PP has done, and these are the services that I wish existed on a larger scale. The fact is, there is a nation full of impoverished women here in America who have no other place to go to receive reproductive health screenings, exams, and services that have nothing to do with contraception or abortion. These are the types of issues that I worry about in terms of poor women in America having access to health care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1328729571' post='2383801'] Here you can find Martin Luther's complete support of Planned Parenthood This is from his niece, Alveda King's book. [/quote] I do not consider Alvenda King a particilarly reliable source. She was King's niece. She was in her teens when he died. I couldn't find any public statements from King on abortion even though it was legal in at least Colorado when he died. I haven't found anything from his actual confidants saying he was adamantly anti-abortion. And Alvenda King does not seem like a reliable person. I'm not opposed to the idea of King being pro-life. He may well have been. I don't think it impacts my case at all. But I haven't found any serious one way or the other (I haven't found any proof he was avowedly pro-choice either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 By the way Hasan, I reread your article a couple of times and it doesn't refute my claim, it endorses it! [quote]Like others trying to turn abortion into a racial wedge issue, Crutcher, the director of [i]Maafa 21[/i], points out that black women have a far higher abortion rate than white women. He’s right that this is a result of discrimination, though not in the way he believes. Thanks in part to the anti-abortion movement, poor women have far inferior access to sex education and reproductive health services than middle class women do. According to the Guttmacher Institute, 69% of pregnancies among African-American women are unplanned, compared to 40% for white women. This is an injustice, because black women deserve the same control over their reproductive lives that white women enjoy.[/quote] It tries to rationalize it but it doesn't deny it. Planned Parenthood on the other hand tries to tweak the numbers to deny their racism. [quote]Like others trying to turn abortion into a racial wedge issue, Crutcher, the director of [i]Maafa 21[/i], points out that black women have a far higher abortion rate than white women. He’s right that this is a result of discrimination, though not in the way he believes. Thanks in part to the anti-abortion movement, poor women have far inferior access to sex education and reproductive health services than middle class women do. According to the Guttmacher Institute, 69% of pregnancies among African-American women are unplanned, compared to 40% for white women. This is an injustice, because black women deserve the same control over their reproductive lives that white women enjoy.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1328729661' post='2383803'] It's not a conspiracy theory. And to blatantly disregard it as such is ignorant and perpetuates the racism. [/quote] It is by definition a conspiracy theory. Unless you're contending that Planned Parenthood openly states that they are actively perusing the genocide of the black community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328730242' post='2383806'] I do not consider Alvenda King a particilarly reliable source. She was King's niece. She was in her teens when he died. I couldn't find any public statements from King on abortion even though it was legal in at least Colorado when he died. I haven't found anything from his actual confidants saying he was adamantly anti-abortion. And Alvenda King does not seem like a reliable person. I'm not opposed to the idea of King being pro-life. He may well have been. I don't think it impacts my case at all. But I haven't found any serious one way or the other (I haven't found any proof he was avowedly pro-choice either). [/quote] You think Alveda is unreliable but PP is being objective. Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328730370' post='2383809'] It is by definition a conspiracy theory. Unless you're contending that Planned Parenthood openly states that they are actively perusing the genocide of the black community? [/quote] Really? So then you would say that the KKK's hatred for African Americans and supporting their history of lynching is a conspiracy? Keep going down this path Hasan. It leads to a big dark hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1328730360' post='2383808'] By the way Hasan, I reread your article a couple of times and it doesn't refute my claim, it endorses it! It tries to rationalize it but it doesn't deny it. Planned Parenthood on the other hand tries to tweak the numbers to deny their racism. [/quote] I haven't disputed that black women have proportionally higher rates of abortion than white women. Where we disagree, as I understand your position, is whether that amounts to socio-economic factors or is the result of a premeditated attempt to exterminate the black community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1328730410' post='2383810'] You think Alveda is unreliable but PP is being objective. Curious [/quote] I didn't cite Planed Parenthood in response to her claims about Martin Luther. I found plenty of pro-choice sites that tried to conflate Luther's indisputable support of family planning and its benefits to the black community with support for abortion. I'm saying that neither have proven their case either way. I do find her claim that he was so avowedly anti-abortion suspicious since there is no record of him making such a claim, that I can find, from either his public or personal statements to those with whom he was actively working with on the civil rights issues. But her being an unreliable source doesn't make him pro-choice and I'm not saying that he was. I don't know and haven't found any reliable evidence either way. Edited February 8, 2012 by Hasan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1328730043' post='2383805'] Well, I have to be honest, I admit that I have mixed feelings. I'd like to state right up front that I am pro-life (anti-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-war) and that I hold no views in regard to PP which oppose the Church. However, I do have personal knowledge of experiences with PP that were very positive and had nothing at all to do with contraception or abortion. A friend of mine was date-raped in her late teens and was subsequently infected with HPV because of the assault. She went to PP for assistance (NOT for contraception) because she did not report the assault and did not want her family to know. She is an upper middle class caucasian female and not of the typical PP demographic. The PP she went to provided her with exams, STD testing and counselling. She continued to follow up through the subsequent years with PP and three years after her assault she was found to have cervical cancer (related to the HPV infection). The PP provided all her pap smears, and when the cancerous cells were detected, she was referred immediately to an oncologist, who treated her and ultimately saved her life. She is now in her late 30s and is cancer free. While I am fully familiar with the origins of PP, and I understand completely the corporatized abortion industry, I would like to simply state that there are cases where PP has provided legitimately important medical care to women that had nothing to do with contraceptives or abortion services. I am not in any way a supporter of PP as an entity; what I would rather see is more clinics that provided services similar in nature to what my friend received. Like I said, this is not a pro-PP post, so I hope that no one tries to give me a lecture on my moral ambiguity. I am simply giving an example of my firsthand knowledge of some of the valuable things that PP has done, and these are the services that I wish existed on a larger scale. The fact is, there is a nation full of impoverished women here in America who have no other place to go to receive reproductive health screenings, exams, and services that have nothing to do with contraception or abortion. These are the types of issues that I worry about in terms of poor women in America having access to health care. [/quote] I like this post and pretty much agree. It's like I still think PP is a disgraceful organization, and would like to see it gone, but I guess it's nice to know that they do genuinely good things on occasion. There's this idea that being against PP means being against healthcare for poor people though which I can't really stomach. I would love organizations that extend health care services that do not simultaneously inflict massive harm to women, the unborn, and society in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328730488' post='2383812'] I haven't disputed that black women have proportionally higher rates of abortion than white women. Where we disagree, as I understand your position, is whether that amounts to socio-economic factors or is the result of a premeditated attempt to exterminate the black community. [/quote] Ok then. If it is socio economic factors, chew on this. I've demonstrated that the african american women are having way more abortions, but if this about socio economics, then shouldn't white women have more? Traits of families on AFDC (1) [b]Race[/b] -------------- White 38.8% Black 37.2 Hispanic 17.8 Asian 2.8 Other 3.4 White women consist of more of our poor than black women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1328730487' post='2383811'] Really? So then you would say that the KKK's hatred for African Americans and supporting their history of lynching is a conspiracy?[/QUOTE] No. The Klan is quite open in their belief that blacks are inferior. You are contending that Planned Parenthood is attempting to exterminate the black community through the guise of family planning. Planned Parenthood absolutely denies this. Hence, a conspiracy theory. Edited February 8, 2012 by Hasan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1328730863' post='2383817'] Ok then. If it is socio economic factors, chew on this. I've demonstrated that the african american women are having way more abortions, but if this about socio economics, then shouldn't white women have more? Traits of families on AFDC (1) [b]Race[/b] -------------- White 38.8% Black 37.2 Hispanic 17.8 Asian 2.8 Other 3.4 White women consist of more of our poor than black women. [/quote] [url="http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/11/3/gpr110302.html"]http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/11/3/gpr110302.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328730704' post='2383813'] [b]I didn't cite Planed Parenthood in response to her claims about Martin Luther[/b]. I found plenty of pro-choice sites that tried to conflate Luther's indisputable support of family planning and its benefits to the black community with support for abortion. I'm saying that neither have proven their case either way. I do find her claim that he was so avowedly anti-abortion suspicious since there is no record of him making such a claim, that I can find, from either his public or personal statements to those with whom he was actively working with on the civil rights issues. But her being an unreliable source doesn't make him pro-choice and I'm not saying that he was. I don't know and haven't found any reliable evidence either way. [/quote] [url="http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/reverend-martin-luther-king-jr-4728.htm"][color="#ff0000"]http://www.plannedpa...ing-jr-4728.htm[/color][/url] That's your link sunshine. Give it a click and look at the biggest words in the top left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1328730855' post='2383816'] I like this post and pretty much agree. It's like I still think PP is a disgraceful organization, and would like to see it gone, but I guess it's nice to know that they do genuinely good things on occasion. There's this idea that being against PP means being against healthcare for poor people though which I can't really stomach. I would love organizations that extend health care services that do not simultaneously inflict massive harm to women, the unborn, and society in general. [/quote] Yes, this was my point exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1328730981' post='2383821'] [url="http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/reverend-martin-luther-king-jr-4728.htm"][color=#ff0000]http://www.plannedpa...ing-jr-4728.htm[/color][/url] That's your link sunshine. Give it a click and look at the biggest words in the top left [/quote] That's a link to Martin Luther King Jr's words. Yes, it's on a Planned Parenthood website but unless you are contending that the speech is fabricated then I don't see how that matters. Regardless, I didnt say I haven't cited Planned Parenthood at all. I said I didn't cite Planned Parenthood in response to Alveda's claim about Martin Luther. Which is indisputably true. Have I been condescending to you? If so, it hasn't been intentional and I apologize. If not, then I would appreciate it if you returned the favor and didn't call me 'sunshine'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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