Priest's Story:surviving Hiroshima As A Child

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328416352' post='2381242']
It is the way God order the Israelis deal with more than one tribe of infidels. Not with nuclear bombs, of course. More primitive means but the same effect.

[b]DEUTERONOMY [/b]
[b]20:16[/b][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][size=3] As for the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is going to give you as an inheritance, you must not allow a single living thing to survive. [/size][/font][/color][b]17[/b][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][size=3] Instead you must utterly annihilate them – the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites – just as the Lord your God has commanded you,[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
You don't believe any of that happened anyway.

[4588686]

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328413117' post='2381187']
The Eula Gay brought Religion.
[/quote]

I was going to respond sarcastically about the horrors of WWII bringing about the rise of atheistic existentialism and the loss of religious faith in Europe when I realized that you're probably a troll.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328416352' post='2381242']
It is the way God order the Israelis deal with more than one tribe of infidels. Not with nuclear bombs, of course. More primitive means but the same effect.

[b]DEUTERONOMY [/b]
[b]20:16[/b][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][size=3] As for the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is going to give you as an inheritance, you must not allow a single living thing to survive. [/size][/font][/color][b]17[/b][color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][size=3] Instead you must utterly annihilate them – the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites – just as the Lord your God has commanded you,[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]

Amen

[4588686]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1328416419' post='2381245']
You don't believe any of that happened anyway.
[/quote]

Not exactly. I'm sure the stories reflect, to some degree, real events that occurred in the history of the Israelis. I just think your respectable resistance to slaughtering civilians is at odds with the war ethics of the Old Testament God.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328416632' post='2381251']
Not exactly. I'm sure the stories reflect, to some degree, real events that occurred in the history of the Israelis. I just think your respectable resistance to slaughtering civilians is at odds with the war ethics of the Old Testament God.
[/quote]
Orly?

[spoiler][img]http://imgcache.ifans.com/forums/imgcache3/4abb4602eba83b86167fdca147acd59c.png?orig_url=http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/385085-walnuts/85/97/mlp_orly_display.png[/simg][/spoiler]

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[4588686]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1328416660' post='2381252']
Orly?
[/quote]

Yep

[catholicinsd]

Well, without the Second World War, so many people would still be worshipping false Gods, which I feel is worse than having no religion.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328416694' post='2381253']
Yep
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about something or other.

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328416697' post='2381254']
Well, without the Second World War, so many people would still be worshipping false Gods, which I feel is worse than having no religion.
[/quote]

Yeah, it's just too bad that Truman didn't have any bombs that would have destroyed [i]all[/i] of Japan, and all of Asia too.

[4588686]

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328416697' post='2381254']
Well, without the Second World War, so many people would still be worshipping false Gods, which I feel is worse than having no religion.
[/quote]

World War II more, than any event that I can think of, brought about the end of colonialism and the emergence of nationalism amongst the colonized people, often with an accompaning rejection of the white man's God in favor of the old gods.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328416854' post='2381258']
World War II more, than any event that I can think of, brought about the end of colonialism and the emergence of nationalism amongst the colonized people, often with an accompaning rejection of the white man's God in favor of the old gods.
[/quote]

Well at least the lambs and the goats can seperate themselves.

[4588686]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1328416800' post='2381255']
I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about something or other.

[/quote]

I think your religion compels you to believe that the slaughtering of civilians is sometimes not just permissible but normative. If God orders it, then it is quite Holy to murder a child, or in the case of the tribes listed in the passage I quoted, multitudes of children. Is this wrong?

[quote name='Righteous Anger' timestamp='1328416987' post='2381262']
Well at least the lambs and the goats can seperate themselves.
[/quote]

That's what I've always said.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328417073' post='2381265']
I think your religion compels you to believe that the slaughtering of civilians is sometimes not just permissible but normative. If God orders it, then it is quite Holy to murder a child, or in the case of the tribes listed in the passage I quoted, multitudes of children. [b] Is this wrong?[/b]
[/quote]

Absolutely not.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328417119' post='2381265']
I think your religion compels you to believe that the slaughtering of civilians is sometimes not just permissible but normative. If God orders it, then it is quite Holy to murder a child, or in the case of the tribes listed in the passage I quoted, multitudes of children. Is this wrong?
[/quote]
TREMBLE IN FEAR AT MY PROOFTEXT, HEATHEN!

[url="http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/01/did-god-command-genocide-in-deuteronomy.html"]http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/01/did-god-command-genocide-in-deuteronomy.html[/url]


[b] [url="http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2012/01/did-god-command-genocide-in-deuteronomy.html"]Did God Command Genocide in Deuteronomy?[/url][/b]
[size=4]

Posted by Dr. Taylor Marshall [url="http://www.blogger.com/email-post.g?blogID=19781713&postID=845325920005505491"][img]http://img1.blogblog.com/img/icon18_email.gif[/img][/url][/size][size=5]

[left]

[center][url="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TFhnTK1O9hM/TwW2hejsCRI/AAAAAAAABLg/I-w7OzAYd1M/s1600/Joshua_Jericho.jpg"][img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TFhnTK1O9hM/TwW2hejsCRI/AAAAAAAABLg/I-w7OzAYd1M/s400/Joshua_Jericho.jpg[/img][/url][/center]
In the comments below regarding God's command to stone sinners for certain crimes in the Old Law, (see Deut 12:10), the topic of Israelite genocide came up. Especially with the advent of the New Atheists, there is an allegation that the God of Israel commanded "genocide." As we saw previously, God has commanded the death of certain individuals, but did He also command the death of an entire race or entire races?

Their argument of "Israelite genocide" comes chiefly from the 20th chapter of Deuteronomy:[indent][16] But of those cities that shall be given thee, thou shalt suffer none at all to live: [17] But shalt kill them with the edge of the sword, to wit, the Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: [18] Lest they teach you to do all the abominations which they have done to their gods: and you should sin against the Lord your God.[/indent]
Here God commands that the cities of six peoples be destroyed. Remember the context. The Israelites are about to re-enter the Promised Land and conquer the land as their own. When they come across these six peoples, they are to kill them all. Why? It has nothing to do with genetic inferiority or genetic impurity. Rather, these six peoples practice "abominations" that will lead Israel to abandon God.

What kind of abominations? Child sacrifice, sorcery, idolatry, incest, rape, sodomy, and murder.

Now opponents of Christianity will cite this verse to the horror of their audience in order to prove that the God of Israel is either cruel or just as capricious as Jupiter or Allah.

How do we answer?

Check the context. The part that is often left out is the section immediately preceding the passage above from Deuteronomy 20. My commentary is in red:[indent][10] If at any time thou come to fight against a city, [u][b]thou shalt first offer it peace.[/b][/u] [color=red]{Hence, God doesn't order absolute genocide, but first offers peace to all the cities of the pagans.}[/color] [11] If they receive it, and open the gates to thee, [b][u]all the people that are therein, shall be saved,[/u][/b] and shall serve thee paying tribute. [color=red]{If they accept the peace offered by Israel they will be saved, but will have to pay taxes to Israel since Israel rightfully owns the promise land by God's command}[/color] [12] But if they will not make peace, and shall begin war against thee, thou shalt besiege it. [13] And when the Lord thy God shall deliver it into thy bands, thou shalt slay all that are therein of the male sex, with the edge of the sword, [14] [u][b]Excepting women and children, cattle and other things, that are in the city.[/b][/u] And thou shalt divide all the prey to the army, and thou shalt eat the spoils of thy enemies, which the Lord thy God shall give thee. [15] So shalt thou do to all cities that are at a great distance from thee, and are not of these cities which thou shalt receive in possession.[/indent]
Certainly the six peoples listed above, the Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, were treated more strictly since even their women and children [i]were [/i]to be slaughtered if they did not accept the peace of Israel (consult verse 16 which places a stricter judgment o these people). Nonetheless, we know from history that some of these people did receive Israel and were not only preserved, but began to worship to the true God of Israel.

For example, in 2 Samuel 24:18 we read, "And Gad came to David that day, and said: Go up, and build an altar to the Lord in the threshing floor of [u][b]Areuna the Jebusite.[/b][/u]" Here then is a land-owning Jebusite living in Jerusalem. David doesn't kill him. He makes a deal with him. In fact, this Jebusite even offers his land for free to King David so that the Temple will be built there. He even tries to freely give his oxen for the sacrifice to God! Even so, David reward the Jebusite for paying him a fair price anyway. So much for absolute genocide against the Jebusites!

Another example is Rahab, the keeper of the lodge in Jericho is also an example of a woman, who with her household, was saved by receiving Israel and converting to the God of Israel.

Some will still be upset by the fact that God ordered the children of these people to be killed. Notably in other cities, these children were spared, but among the the Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, the children were to be killed. I do not have a good answer for this, but I'll do some reading and see what I can find.[/left][/size]

[4588686]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1328417290' post='2381270']
TREMBLE IN FEAR AT MY PROOFTEXT, HEATHEN![/QUOTE]



[QUOTE]In the comments below regarding God's command to stone sinners for certain crimes in the Old Law, (see Deut 12:10), the topic of Israelite genocide came up. Especially with the advent of the New Atheists, there is an allegation that the God of Israel commanded "genocide." As we saw previously, God has commanded the death of certain individuals, but did He also command the death of an entire race or entire races?[/QUOTE]

I don't think I said anything about genocide. I've never contended that the arguable racial chauvinism in the Old Testament regarding the Jews was the cause of race wars and this this racist warfare was wrong. While what the God of the Old Testament would without a doubt constitute genocide by today's standards (regarding the Canaaites at least I recall specific instructions to destroy their cultural and religious heritage as well and murdering the individual Canaaites) I didn't classify the specific type of mass murder that God demanded.


[QUOTE]Their argument of "Israelite genocide" comes chiefly from the 20th chapter of Deuteronomy:[indent][16] But of those cities that shall be given thee, thou shalt suffer none at all to live: [17] But shalt kill them with the edge of the sword, to wit, the Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: [18] Lest they teach you to do all the abominations which they have done to their gods: and you should sin against the Lord your God.[/indent]
Here God commands that the cities of six peoples be destroyed. Remember the context. The Israelites are about to re-enter the Promised Land and conquer the land as their own. When they come across these six peoples, they are to kill them all. Why? It has nothing to do with genetic inferiority or genetic impurity. Rather, these six peoples practice "abominations" that will lead Israel to abandon God.[/QUOTE]

Well. I don't want to get bogged down in the genocide argument but I do think this is misleading. Genocide doesn't require that the offending party believes themselves to be genetically inferior. I can can of one Bosnian Serb song that exalted the Serbian people as the 'white race' but most of the justifications that I can think of really made little or no pretense to Serbian genetic superiority. One race doesn't need to consider itself genetically superior in order to commit genocide. The act of genocide really hinges on their simply desire to eradicate the other race. Regardless of whether of not they consider the opposing race their inferiors or not. Serbian genocide was usually justified by supposed communal betrayals of the Bosniaks against the Serbs, demographics (Muslims were getting too populous), religion (tied to communal betrayal as the Bosniaks were 'backwards Christians,' that is Christians who had betrayed their faith to cozy up with the oppressive Ottomans et cetera).

[QUOTE]What kind of abominations? Child sacrifice, sorcery, idolatry, incest, rape, sodomy, and murder.

Now opponents of Christianity will cite this verse to the horror of their audience in order to prove that the God of Israel is either cruel or just as capricious as Jupiter or Allah.[/QUOTE]

The Qur'an never demands the indiscriminate slaughter of women and children. Shariah law allows Muslim armies to proceed with battle even if the other army had intentionally intermingled themselves with civilians. But I can't think of any overt commands to specifically seek out woman and children. So I think the author's chauvinism is a little misplaced.

[QUOTE]Check the context. The part that is often left out is the section immediately preceding the passage above from Deuteronomy 20. My commentary is in red:[indent][10] If at any time thou come to fight against a city, [u][b]thou shalt first offer it peace.[/b][/u] [color=red]{Hence, God doesn't order absolute genocide, but first offers peace to all the cities of the pagans.}[/color] [11] If they receive it, and open the gates to thee, [b][u]all the people that are therein, shall be saved,[/u][/b] and shall serve thee paying tribute. [color=red]{If they accept the peace offered by Israel they will be saved, but will have to pay taxes to Israel since Israel rightfully owns the promise land by God's command}[/color] [12][/QUOTE]
Ah. So the infidel tribes may be permitted to pay the Israelis for the privilege of living on the land they were already occupying.

[QUOTE]But if they will not make peace, and shall begin war against thee, thou shalt besiege it. [13] And when the Lord thy God shall deliver it into thy bands, thou shalt slay all that are therein of the male sex, with the edge of the sword, [14] [u][b]Excepting women and children, cattle and other things, that are in the city.[/b][/u] [/QUOTE]

Not the Alemikites.

[size=4][color=#000000][font=Helvetica, Univers, sans-serif]Samuel 15: 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3[/font][/color][b][color=#000000][font=Helvetica, Univers, sans-serif]Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man [i][u]and woman, infant and suckling,[/u][/i] ox and sheep, camel and arse.[/font][/color][/b][/size]

[QUOTE]And thou shalt divide all the prey to the army, and thou shalt eat the spoils of thy enemies, which the Lord thy God shall give thee. [15] So shalt thou do to all cities that are at a great distance from thee, and are not of these cities which thou shalt receive in possession.[/indent]
Certainly the six peoples listed above, the Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, were treated more strictly since even their women and children [i]were [/i]to be slaughtered if they did not accept the peace of Israel (consult verse 16 which places a stricter judgment o these people). Nonetheless, we know from history that some of these people did receive Israel and were not only preserved, but began to worship to the true God of Israel.[/QUOTE]

Ah. So despite God's command a few managed to survive? You're a thoughtful person. You know that's weak. And if I posed this argument in defense of the genocide committed against the Native Americans, some survived the biological warfare of smallpox blankets and did quite well in white society, you'd tear it to pieces.

[QUOTE]For example, in 2 Samuel 24:18 we read, "And Gad came to David that day, and said: Go up, and build an altar to the Lord in the threshing floor of [u][b]Areuna the Jebusite.[/b][/u]" Here then is a land-owning Jebusite living in Jerusalem. David doesn't kill him. He makes a deal with him. In fact, this Jebusite even offers his land for free to King David so that the Temple will be built there. He even tries to freely give his oxen for the sacrifice to God! Even so, David reward the Jebusite for paying him a fair price anyway. So much for absolute genocide against the Jebusites![/QUOTE]

Ok

[QUOTE]Another example is Rahab, the keeper of the lodge in Jericho is also an example of a woman, who with her household, was saved by receiving Israel and converting to the God of Israel.

Some will still be upset by the fact that God ordered the children of these people to be killed. Notably in other cities, these children were spared, but among the the Hethite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, the children were to be killed.[b] I do not have a good answer for this, but I'll do some reading and see what I can find.[/b]
[/quote]

Well. I can respect that.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Hasan

[Nihil Obstat]

I wasn't really planning on getting into a debate on that topic, so I haven't really been formulating any replies. There have been long enough debates on this, even within the last ten months.