The Whosoevers: Murder Your Flesh

[Louie]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1330119567' post='2392467']



The curious part is how people read this and HAVE to divide Peter and his faith to support their non-biblical beliefs....

LOL....


And you are suffering from the protestant Either/Or conundrum.
[/quote]

Of course you would agree with your catholic brother...once again you HAVE skipped over everything else to find something to find fault in...of at least a fault by your understanding...what say you about the rest?

[Louie]

Here is scripture with verses marked for those who have difficulty separating them...Mark 7

    1  Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem.  2  Now when* they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault.  3  For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders.  4  When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches. 
    5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" 
    6  He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
'This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me. 
    7  And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'* 
    8  For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men* - the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." 
    9  He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.  10  For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother';* and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'* 11  But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" - ' (that is, a gift to God),  12  then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother,  13  making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."  

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330120176' post='2392473']
I do all this on my phone...it's obvious to me that you have paid no mind to my previous responses and explanations whether here or there...I use both scriptures and my understandings of them...being guided and taught by the Holy Spirit which enables me to do so...You do believe in the Holy Spirit and [b]it's [/b]ability to teach anyone who is willing to be taught by[b] it[/b]?
As for being able to seperate verses...get your bible out and read along.
[/quote]

First off, the Holy Spirit is "He" not "it."

But you see, the problem is that there are millions of people being "taught and guided by the Holy Spirit" who come to different conclusions on salvation, baptism, justification, church structure, the meaning of faith and works, etc, etc, etc... How can the Holy Spirit lead people in falsehood? He cannot. He does not. God is the God of Truth and order-- not chaos. You may say that "as Christians we can choose to agree to disagree on the non-essentials." To me, this is a cop-out. It still does not answer the question of why the Holy Spirit would guide people in falsehood. And besides, who gets to decide what are the non-essentials?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1330124743' post='2392539']


First off, the Holy Spirit is "He" not "it."

But you see, the problem is that there are millions of people being "taught and guided by the Holy Spirit" who come to different conclusions on salvation, baptism, justification, church structure, the meaning of faith and works, etc, etc, etc... How can the Holy Spirit lead people in falsehood? He cannot. He does not. God is the God of Truth and order-- not chaos. You may say that "as Christians we can choose to agree to disagree on the non-essentials." To me, this is a cop-out. It still does not answer the question of why the Holy Spirit would guide people in falsehood. And besides, who gets to decide what are the non-essentials?
[/quote]Amen.

Louie,
In the excerpts and Scripture you posted, there wasn't anything with which Catholics would disagree, as far as I saw (with the exception of your parenthetical statements in Matthew 16:18. Reading it like that really doesn't make linguistic sense). The problem, though, is that you seem to be setting up false dichotomies, saying that since Christ is the Rock, Peter cannot also be a rock. Instead, we take the both/and approach, recognizing that of course Jesus is the Rock, but also that Peter, whose very name, given to him by Jesus, means rock, is also a rock by virtue of his faith and recognition of Jesus as the Messiah.

God bless

[Hubertus]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330121302' post='2392481']
Of course you would agree with your catholic brother...once again you HAVE skipped over everything else to find something to find fault in...of at least a fault by your understanding...what say you about the rest?
[/quote] You might want to try talking with people on their terms instead of drowning them with text that they don't have the time to read or respond to. It's supposed to be a discussion, not a monologue!

[Selah]

[size=4][quote][color=#282828]You do believe in the Holy Spirit and [/color][b]it's [/b][color=#282828]ability to teach anyone who is willing to be taught by[/color][b] it[/b][color=#282828]?[/color][/quote][/size]

[size=4]Please do not call the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life "it." You may not have meant to, but that's kind of a big deal.[/size]

Edited February 25, 2012 by Selah

[Papist]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330119018' post='2392458']
According to "your" beliefs Peter is the head of the church...but according to scripture Christ is the Head of the church....For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:23...Christ is the Head of the church...you are using circular reasoning here...you cannot convince me of something based on your beliefs or what has been taught to you...here you go just in case you missed it the first time...

Augustine (345-430 A.D.)

We who are Christians in name and in deed do not believe in Peter, but in him in whom Peter believed; we have been drawn to Christ by Peter's exhortations, not drugged by his incantations; we have been helped by his services, not hoodwinked by his sorceries. Christ was Peter's teacher in that faith which leads to everlasting life. The same Christ is our teacher too.

Source: St. Augustine's City of God, Book XVIII, Chapter 54, edited by Vernon J. Bourke, Image Books Doubleday, Copyright 1958, ISBN 0-385-02910-1, bearing the Imprimatur of Francis Cardinal Spellman, Archbishop of New York, page 425.

The Venerable Bede (637-735 A.D.)

Peter therefore is the same in Greek or Latin as Cephas in Syriac, and in each language the name is derived from “rock”; there is no doubt but that [it is] that [rock] concerning which Paul says: And that Rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10). For just as Christ, the true Light, granted to the apostles that they might be called the light of the world, thus also upon Simon, who believed in Christ the Rock [Latin, petra], He bestowed the name of Peter [Latin, petrus]. On another occasion, alluding to this etymology, He said: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church (Matt. 16).

Source: Bede, the Venerable, In Marci Evangeluim Expositio, i. 3, comment on Mark 2, in MPL, Vol. 92, col. 160. Latin.

[col. 78] And I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. Metaphorically it is said to him: Upon this rock, that is the Saviour [col. 79] whom you have confessed, the church is built, [the Saviour] who has given to the faithful confessor a participation in His name… And whatsoever thou shalt bind, etc. This power without doubt is given to all the apostles, to whom by Him after the resurrection it was said generally, Receive [ye] the Holy Spirit, etc. (John 20). And in fact to the bishops and priests, and to every church, is committed the same function, although certain of them, not understanding rightly, think that they are able to condemn the innocent and to absolve the guilty, which they are not at all able [to do], but attempting [it], to deprive themselves of the power granted [them].

Source: Bede, the Venerable, In Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, iii. 16, comment on Matt. 16:[18], in MPL, Vol. 92, cols. 78, 79. Latin.

Augustine (345-430 A.D.) and Hilary (-367? A.D.)

Romanism professes to be governed in its interpretation of Scripture "according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers."

Now, let us see how truthful (?) the Catholic Church is and how loyally (?) she subscribes to the writings of "the Fathers."

Augustine, the learned and celebrated Bishop of Hippo, whose name is a household word among Catholics, handled Matt. 16:18 as follows:

"Thou art Peter, and upon this rock which thou hast confessed . . . saying, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my church."
[ Sermon XXVI., On Matt. XIV. 25, paragraph 1.]

And Hilary, another Catholic saint, whose day on the calendar is January 13, wrote:

"This one foundation is immovable; that is, that one blessed rock of faith, confessed by the mouth of Peter, 'Thou art the Son of the Living God.' The building of the church is upon this rock of confession. This faith hath the keys of the kingdom of heaven; what this faith shall loose or bind is bound and loosed in heaven." [On the Trinity, Book II, paragraph 23.]

In the writings of these Fathers, Peter loses his identity. The Catholic Church of to-day should either interpret Matt. 16:18 correctly, or pull St. Augustine and St. Hillary down from their high pedestals and consign them to purgatory for having misinterpreted it.

Source: Center Shots at Rome, by George P. Rutledge, 1914, published by Standard Publishing, pages 34-35.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them (the disciples) unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mark 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mark 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luke 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luke 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Curiously, even the new Vatican Catechism confirms that it was Peter's confession of faith, and not Peter himself, that is the foundation rock upon which the church would be founded (emphasis is mine):

424 Moved by the grace on the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mat 16:16) On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church. (Mat 16:18, St Leo the Great - Sermo 4,3; Sermo 51,1; Sermo 62,2; Sermo 83,3 )

442 ... And in the synagogues immediately [Paul] proclaimed Jesus, saying, 'He is the Son of God.'" (Acts 9:12) From the beginning this acknowledgment of Christ's divine sonship will be the center of the apostolic faith, first professed by Peter as the Church's foundation. ( cf. 1 Thess 1:10, Jn 20:31; Mt 16:18)

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, published by Ligouri Publications, English translation copyright 1994 by the United States Catholic Conference, Inc.--Libreria Editrice Vaticana, bearing the Imprimi Potest of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, pages 106, 111-112.

The church is indeed founded on faith in Jesus Christ. In fact, it is the only sure foundation-

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
[b]Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock ([color=#ff0000]of faith - that whosoever believeth in him, Jesus Christ[/color]) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ([color=#ff0000]whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life[/color]).[/b]

The Rock of the Gospel message is Jesus Christ and faith in Him will indeed prevail over the gates of the grave.

The sources are there for you to reference to.
[/quote]

Christ and the Church are one in the same. You cannot separate the two. I went over this before. You state above, and in scripture, that Christ built a church. Where is this church? Is it a visible or invisible church? You quoted scripture that says the gates of hell shall not prevail against it[the church]. How can the gates of hell prevail over an invisible church? Christ knew He was not coming back soon and He needed someone to represent Him here on earth and gave him[Peter] and the Church the protection of the Holy Spirit. Without leaders and a hierarchy, chaos would run rapid throughout the Church. It's not luck that the Catholic Church has remained solid for 2,000 years.

Is your interpretation, which I colored red, infallible? How did you receive such authority?

I see you like Saint Augustine. He is great. I don't think he is saying we believe in Peter as one beliefs in Christ. Is that what you think Saint Augustine is talking about, that we Catholics believe in Peter as you believe in Christ. If so, you are misunderstanding him.


"I would not believe the Gospel unless moved thereto by the authority of the Church." - St. Augustine (Contra Epis. Manich., Fund., n. 6.)

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." - St. Augustine


[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330120176' post='2392473']
I do all this on my phone...it's obvious to me that you have paid no mind to my previous responses and explanations whether here or there...I use both scriptures and my understandings of them...being guided and taught by the Holy Spirit which enables me to do so...You do believe in the Holy Spirit and it's ability to teach anyone who is willing to be taught by it?
As for being able to seperate verses...get your bible out and read along.
[/quote]

What of the people that get different understanding of the same scripture passages and both claim they are being guided by the Holy Spirit? I have asked this before and have not received a response.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Papist

[Papist]

[quote name='Louie' timestamp='1330122128' post='2392492']
Here is scripture with verses marked for those who have difficulty separating them...Mark 7

1 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when* they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?"
6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
'This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'*
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men* - the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."
9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother';* and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'* 11 But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban" - ' (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
[/quote]

Ok. Please explain what this means.

[cmotherofpirl]

Of course Christ/Church is the rock, and Peter, and all the Popes after him stand alone ON that rock. Did you really think the Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God would forget to leave someone to mind the store til HE returns?? Seriously?
Why do you think all the generic groups fight over doctrine and tradition - they have no history or connection to the historical Jesus Christ who founded the Church other than their own personal opinion, emotional feelings or their confused interpretation of Catholic Scriptures.

[Louie]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1330141967' post='2392693']


Christ and the Church are one in the same. You cannot separate the two. I went over this before. You state above, and in scripture, that Christ built a church. Where is this church? Is it a visible or invisible church? You quoted scripture that says the gates of hell shall not prevail against it[the church]. How can the gates of hell prevail over an invisible church? Christ knew He was not coming back soon and He needed someone to represent Him here on earth and gave him[Peter] and the Church the protection of the Holy Spirit. Without leaders and a hierarchy, chaos would run rapid throughout the Church. It's not luck that the Catholic Church has remained solid for 2,000 years.

Is your interpretation, which I colored red, infallible? How did you receive such authority?

I see you like Saint Augustine. He is great. I don't think he is saying we believe in Peter as one beliefs in Christ. Is that what you think Saint Augustine is talking about, that we Catholics believe in Peter as you believe in Christ. If so, you are misunderstanding him.


"I would not believe the Gospel unless moved thereto by the authority of the Church." - St. Augustine (Contra Epis. Manich., Fund., n. 6.)

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." - St. Augustine




What of the people that get different understanding of the same scripture passages and both claim they are being guided by the Holy Spirit? I have asked this before and have not received a response.
[/quote]

I gave you one...you as you have before ignored my response...which I backed up biblically...I refuse to repeat myself when I have already explained all these many different subjects to you all

Edited February 25, 2012 by Louie

[Louie]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1330124743' post='2392539']


First off, the Holy Spirit is "He" not "it."

But you see, the problem is that there are millions of people being "taught and guided by the Holy Spirit" who come to different conclusions on salvation, baptism, justification, church structure, the meaning of faith and works, etc, etc, etc... How can the Holy Spirit lead people in falsehood? He cannot. He does not. God is the God of Truth and order-- not chaos. You may say that "as Christians we can choose to agree to disagree on the non-essentials." To me, this is a cop-out. It still does not answer the question of why the Holy Spirit would guide people in falsehood. And besides, who gets to decide what are the non-essentials?
[/quote]

Ok don't get all bent out of shape for my referring to the Holy Spirit as it...not my intentions and anyways scripture does also refer to Him as it... 

John 6:63  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

But just as before you all scan over all that I say and find the little misunderstandings on your end to refute over...

[Louie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1330143881' post='2392712']
Of course Christ/Church is the rock, and Peter, and all the Popes after him stand alone ON that rock. Did you really think the Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God would forget to leave someone to mind the store til HE returns?? Seriously?
Why do you think all the generic groups fight over doctrine and tradition - they have no history or connection to the historical Jesus Christ who founded the Church other than their own personal opinion, emotional feelings or their confused interpretation of Catholic Scriptures.
[/quote]

They alone stand on the Rock? What are you standing on?

[Louie]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1330138535' post='2392658']
[size=4][/size]

[size=4]Please do not call the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life "it." You may not have meant to, but that's kind of a big deal.[/size]
[/quote]

John 6:63 reads...It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

[Louie]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1330124743' post='2392539']


First off, the Holy Spirit is "He" not "it."

But you see, the problem is that there are millions of people being "taught and guided by the Holy Spirit" who come to different conclusions on salvation, baptism, justification, church structure, the meaning of faith and works, etc, etc, etc... How can the Holy Spirit lead people in falsehood? He cannot. He does not. God is the God of Truth and order-- not chaos. You may say that "as Christians we can choose to agree to disagree on the non-essentials." To me, this is a cop-out. It still does not answer the question of why the Holy Spirit would guide people in falsehood. And besides, who gets to decide what are the non-essentials?
[/quote]

We are to test the spirit...1 John 4...1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  2  By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,  3  and every spirit that does not confess that* Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. 
    4  You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.  5  They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.  6  We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 

When we don't test all things with scripture...if it cannot be backed up biblically...then we will be lead away from the truth...lead by a false spirit...The Bible is the authority to live by...it is the Word of God!

Edited February 25, 2012 by Louie

[Louie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1330143881' post='2392712']
Of course Christ/Church is the rock, and Peter, and all the Popes after him stand alone ON that rock. Did you really think the Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God would forget to leave someone to mind the store til HE returns?? Seriously?
Why do you think all the generic groups fight over doctrine and tradition - they have no history or connection to the historical Jesus Christ who founded the Church other than their own personal opinion, emotional feelings or their confused interpretation of Catholic Scriptures.
[/quote]

He left us the Holy Spirit to lead us...you all get upset cause I called the spirit it yet you don't give the Holy Spirit it's due respect concerning "His" power and work.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Louie