Padre Pio Bilocation And Flying

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1328162566' post='2379496']
Good points, LD. One certainly must wonder why no one has flown since the advent of cameras and recording equipment...
[/quote]

Yes, like Padre Pio, who levitated [i]before[/i] the advent of cameras and recording equipment - way back at the dawn of civilization, in the 50's and 60's!

Sorry for the sarcasm...

[Guest]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1328207838' post='2379649']


Yes, like Padre Pio, who levitated [i]before[/i] the advent of cameras and recording equipment - way back at the dawn of civilization, in the 50's and 60's!

Sorry for the sarcasm...
[/quote] So why didn't they take a pic or record it? And why would they lie about it ? That's the part I don't understand.

[Socrates]

From my reading on the topic, it seems Padre Pio's levitation was not that common an occurrence, and was observed by fellow friars during private prayer. It wasn't some kind of big public display.

I don't think that the fact that this miracle and others was not performed in a public setting before cameras is reason to doubt it.

There are too many records of miracles that cannot easily be explained away by science to be discounted. Even hardened atheists have been converted by studying these cases.

But I think God avoids performing large public, broadcast over international television miracles for a reason. If He wished, He could easily perform public shock-and-awe miracles that no one could deny. But I think God prefers that Faith in Christ be spread by the love, teaching and example of His followers, than by miracles that would force everyone to believe. Miracles occur more to strengthen existing faith, than to force everybody to believe.

You'll recall in the Gospels that Christ Himself would refuse to perform miracles to people who had no Faith and wished to put Him to the test.

While we should have a healthy skepticism regarding miraculous claims, if we are in fact believing Christians, believing in the Incarnation, death and Resurrection of Christ, there is absolutely no reason to doubt that miracles do in fact continue to be performed.


Also, miracles are events outside the course of nature, which by their very nature cannot be replicated in a lab setting, and thus will by definition not be able to verified by the scientific method.

But that in no way proves that miracles do not happen

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1328213620' post='2379711']
So why didn't they take a pic or record it? And why would they lie about it ? That's the part I don't understand.
[/quote]

It wasn't like cameras at the time were as ubiquitous as they are now and if St. Pio levitated when only a few were around then to capture such an instance would have been happenchance at best.

[Guest]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1328228295' post='2379863']
From my reading on the topic, it seems Padre Pio's levitation was not that common an occurrence, and was observed by fellow friars during private prayer. It wasn't some kind of big public display.

I don't think that the fact that this miracle and others was not performed in a public setting before cameras is reason to doubt it.

There are too many records of miracles that cannot easily be explained away by science to be discounted. Even hardened atheists have been converted by studying these cases.

But I think God avoids performing large public, broadcast over international television miracles for a reason. If He wished, He could easily perform public shock-and-awe miracles that no one could deny. But I think God prefers that Faith in Christ be spread by the love, teaching and example of His followers, than by miracles that would force everyone to believe. Miracles occur more to strengthen existing faith, than to force everybody to believe.

You'll recall in the Gospels that Christ Himself would refuse to perform miracles to people who had no Faith and wished to put Him to the test.

While we should have a healthy skepticism regarding miraculous claims, if we are in fact believing Christians, believing in the Incarnation, death and Resurrection of Christ, there is absolutely no reason to doubt that miracles do in fact continue to be performed.


Also, miracles are events outside the course of nature, which by their very nature cannot be replicated in a lab setting, and thus will by definition not be able to verified by the scientific method.

But that in no way proves that miracles do not happen
[/quote] amesome post. Godbless brother.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1328228295' post='2379863']
You'll recall in the Gospels that Christ Himself would refuse to perform miracles to people who had no Faith and wished to put Him to the test. . .
Also, miracles are events outside the course of nature, which by their very nature cannot be replicated in a lab setting, and thus will by definition not be able to verified by the scientific method.
[/quote]
Good post. I've quoted the part that I might take issue with, but maybe I'm misinterpreting you. I don't think it is putting God to the test to simply validate things that can be tested - it might even be a duty now that we have the tools to do it. For example, a cloth claimed to be from the time of Christ and said to contain an image of Christ's face. I would not want to venerate a fake cloth and think it would be better for the Church to be without bogus relics. This type of research is already done on what is in my opinion too modest a scale, but the Vatican obviously supports the principle (e.g., the shroud, the tilma, some Eucharistic miracles).
I think there are many claims within Catholicism that can be addressed scientifically - and more than just claims about artifacts (e.g., is something statistically significant happening at Lourdes?). Even things that cannot be addressed definitively, we can gather information and apply various tools of reasoning to get a picture for how likely are to be true. Again, this kind of thing already happens within the Church (e.g., investigating alleged miracles), but my dream would be to take it up several notches and have a thorough scientific auditing of Catholicism. It's just a fun fantasy of mine, if you don't agree I'm not going to be upset. lol.

[Nihil Obstat]

Maybe the Church could team up with the atheist community to subject any particular areas of concern to rigorous testing. ^_^ Get grant money from both sides of the fence.

[4588686]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1328146977' post='2379313']
Just read about St. Joseph. Its amazing stuff. It sounds 100 % real. Why would people lie about this. It seems like there is no doubt this actually happened. As I said before stuff like this proves God is real. How could you not believe in God after this ? People are levitaing pretty much sums up there is a super natural God. Now mabey you don't believe its the Christian God but there is a higher power that's for sure. Btw which is the Christian God. Crazy crazy stuff. Wow. My great aunt told me her aunt or great aunt I forget which, but anyhow she could levitate tables but her dad made her stop cause he thought it was occult. Which mabey it was. I don't know. But anyhow this stuff is very interesting. I also was never aware so many saints have been known to levitate. Very interesting.
[/quote]


I guess Muhammad's night journey to Jerusalem and heaven prove Islam is real too.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1328249586' post='2380134']
Maybe the Church could team up with the atheist community to subject any particular areas of concern to rigorous testing. ^_^ Get grant money from both sides of the fence.[/quote]
I would want to see something completely open and transparent. All the data publicly available, all source code, all papers - and any scientist could work on it. Of course the published work would have to be refereed (by relevant experts) and what would matter is the quality of the science and not the personal beliefs of the scientists. Special processes could be designed and put in place to mitigate bias beyond what is already typical in science. Maybe a journal could be founded specifically for this auditing of Catholicism. Maybe it could go beyond Catholicism and include other religions as well.

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328250112' post='2380136']
I guess Muhammad's night journey to Jerusalem and heaven prove Islam is real too.[/quote]
Yeah, purely anecdotal evidence of supernatural or paranormal events is basically worthless. I think intellectual honesty (something I consider to be a core Catholic value) demands an effort to be cognizant of special pleading, confirmation bias, and double standards in general. Tangentially, if there is potentially good evidence for the supernatural, as one might infer from various claims of the Church, I think this ought to be openly and rigorously tested for the benefit of all; or at least for the sake of intellectual integrity.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Laudate_Dominum

[Guest]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328250112' post='2380136']



I guess Muhammad's night journey to Jerusalem and heaven prove Islam is real too.
[/quote] No Muhammad was a evil sick man. St. Joseph and Padre Pio weren't.