I'd Like To Study Philosophy Independently

[arfink]

I would suggest starting with the originals if only so that you can read them and go "What in the name of Nero's golden fruitcake is going on here?!?" Then you'll appreciate the various commentaries alot more.

[4588686]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1328002474' post='2378184']
Don't kill me pls, but is it such a good idea to start off with primary sources like Plato? Sure, there are good translations nowadays of the most important dudes (ugh and of course they're male, we hardly get any female philosophers until the 20th freaking century) but that doesn't mean it's so easy to understand what the heck they're talking about. I suggest reading the secondary sources in tandem with the primary sources.
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I agree with this completely.

[4588686]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1328004238' post='2378186']
I'm not sure if its a good idea, but I'm currently a freshman studying Plato (and soon Aristotle and others) in my classes. Certainly these things are abstract and obtuse, but all that means is that one should read these books more than once, and make many attempts to extract meaning. As my professor is fond of saying, there are layers and layers of meaning and interpretation to these works, and you can never truly exhaust these ideas. So personally, I would suggest starting with the classics.
[/quote]

But you're in a class. Receiving instruction and clarification from somebody who understands these texts as a function of their profession.

[4588686]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1327886876' post='2377283']


I think it would be helpful for me to start with ancient philosophers and move chronologically, so I can see how worldviews have changed over the years and such.

[/quote]

You are not going to be able to read most of philosophy. That's not any sort of statement of your intelligence. Philosophy is full of jargon and references that really are very difficult to understand. I mean without some introduction to the jargon (which varies over time, Philosophy is over 3,000 years old) and the context within which the texts are being written (the understanding of the natural sciences and philosophy at the time and the philosophical debates of the day) then really reading those texts is going to be a waste of time. You're just not going to get nearly as much out of the texts as you should. There are a lot of anthologies out there that give a solid introduction and then provide some selections of the more important texts written by the major philosophers

Some texts, like Wittgenstein's Tracticus, are almost literally incomprehensible unless you have a really strong grounding in the philosophical debate within which he was entering.

[Brother Adam]

That is tough - where to start with Philosophy. Josef Pieper has an excellent text, For the Love of Wisdom that I might start with if you are going to do something completely self-directed. You can spend the rest of your life reading philosophers. Peter Kreeft's Philosophy 101 books are also great, but a general overview, such as Pieper would be really helpful to learn about philosophy from a Catholic perspective. I echo the other posters who said not to start with the original sources. You'll get there soon enough. You could probably read and do okay with Plato though. My two cents.

[Laudate_Dominum]

My answer was about beginning to survey Western phil. from an historical perspective (my interpretation of the original post). I wouldn't recommend Kirk, Raven, and Schofield as an intro to philosophy. Guthrie's volumes could still be good; although maybe a sweeping overview of Western phil. would be better, such as the [i]History of Western Philosophy[/i] by W. T. Jones. Copleston's nine volumes are excellent, but kind of old school.

[4588686]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1328040829' post='2378430']
That is tough - where to start with Philosophy. Josef Pieper has an excellent text, For the Love of Wisdom that I might start with if you are going to do something completely self-directed. You can spend the rest of your life reading philosophers. Peter Kreeft's Philosophy 101 books are also great, but a general overview, such as Pieper would be really helpful to learn about philosophy from a Catholic perspective. I echo the other posters who said not to start with the original sources. You'll get there soon enough. You could probably read and do okay with Plato though. My two cents.
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Jacques Maritain also wrote short, Thomistic introduction.

And I agree with Brother Adam and LD that the ancient Greek philosophers are sort of a different animal. They wrote before philosophy was a real, distinct discipline and are much more comprehensible. I guess a major question is just what about philosophy interests you. Some areas, like ethics, are pretty comprehensible, while some, like modern logic, are impossible to read without going through an introductory texts and learning logical techniques and notation first.

If I were you I'd look for something like this.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Philosophy-Text-Integrated-Readings/dp/019532952X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328042073&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Philosophy-Text-Integrated-Readings/dp/019532952X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328042073&sr=8-1[/url]

I've never read that book and I'm not pushing that particular text. But It's the right general sort of text. There's some guidance and introduction but also actual selections of text so you can read the primary texts.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1328002474' post='2378184']
Don't kill me pls, but is it such a good idea to start off with primary sources like Plato? Sure, there are good translations nowadays of the most important dudes (ugh and of course they're male, we hardly get any female philosophers until the 20th freaking century) but that doesn't mean it's so easy to understand what the heck they're talking about. I suggest reading the secondary sources in tandem with the primary sources.
[/quote]
It wouldn't be a good idea to start with The Republic, but I think anyone can handle the Apology. It's very entertaining and a good place to start historically. It inspired me to love philosophy, which I think any student will need when it comes time to engage something harder.

I'm not too familiar with secondary materials since I've always had the luxury of professors, but some introductory works would be helpful for getting an introduction to certain ideas before engaging them in the originals.

[qfnol31]

Oh I disagree. We began with the Republic in my class and the class was directed almost entirely by student discussion. I think it works very well.

Again, I don't expect anyone to understand it entirely the first time, but that's kind of how it works.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Plato must be read... Something like the following might be fun as an intro.

Thucydides, [i]The History of the Peloponnesian War[/i]
Plato, [i]Complete Works [/i](Hackett)

While I'm not an expert or a teacher I might suggest reading at least the following dialogues: Meno, Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Symposium, Phaedrus, Theaetetus, Parmenides. And if you're still interested in Plato throw in The Republic. Timaeus is interesting too, but maybe not so important for current purposes.
I just imagine myself becoming anxious to get a taste of more philosophers and maybe going back later and read the other stuff. There are a bunch of fairly short dialogues that introduce many important concepts in Platonism and issues in philosophy; that's sort of that I have in mind here. The Thucydides text provides some historical context and is also a classic that everyone ought to read.

[qfnol31]

The Timaeus is fun, if only because it also references Atlantis. :D Most of those are good suggestions LD.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1328034905' post='2378363']
But you're in a class. Receiving instruction and clarification from somebody who understands these texts as a function of their profession.
[/quote]

Sort of, the teacher sits in, and he will ask a question from time to time, but he really doesn't give any answers or instruction. Does he guide the discussion? Yes, but he doesn't do much to explain it to us, the point of our class is to work through it for ourselves.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1328066262' post='2378735']
The Timaeus is fun, if only because it also references Atlantis. :D Most of those are good suggestions LD.
[/quote]
I've always loved ancient science, math, cosmology, myth, and all that. I have a super old edition of F. M. Cornford's classic commentary on the Timaeus around here some place. I love it.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1328066895' post='2378744']
I've always loved ancient science, math, cosmology, myth, and all that. I have a super old edition of F. M. Cornford's classic commentary on the Timaeus around here some place. I love it.
[/quote]

nevermind, I'm going to PM you, too much of a tangent.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Amppax

[arfink]

If Brother Adam's suggestion isn't enough for you, I can also recommend the works of Josef Pieper. He's an excellent writer. I especially enjoyed his treatise "On Leisure."