The Nature Of Forgiveness, Grudges, Whatnot

[ardillacid]

Looking for any input from the pham

I'm writing this on my phone, so the editing will probably smell of elderberries and will probably be rambling

Okay, here goes. I don't really understand forgiveness. What is expected of the person granting forgiveness? I've had many times where I feel like I was wronged (I'm not saying I was in the right or wrong, just that I felt I was wronged), and the person who offended me asked for forgiveness, and I granted it because I feel that is the accepted social protocol. But on the inside I'm still burning up and pissed off. Not only that, but I know that this colors the way I interact with them after that, and it's not really the same. To top it off, I hold grudges quite easily. I still remember incidents from 10+ years ago that piss me off. On the flip side there have been a lot of occasions where I apologize but I still think I was right.

I guess that makes me a phony. I do not understand how anybody could buy other people's bs though. Let me illustrate with a hypothetical. A friend gets a few drinks in him. He says something degrading to me and appears to mean it. I would probably say the meannest truth about him. Then the next day he apologizes. I forgive him, and say that I'm sorry too. But inside I'm thinking that people don't change over night, he still said and meant, and most likely thinks that about me. Now everytime I see him I pretend everything is normal but I'm thinking he's still the same guy who said that poo.

Anyhow, my thumbs are tired. Feel free to berate me for being full of poo

[MaryJJD]

Actually, I think you're very honest, and human like the rest of us.

I also think there is a key difference between forgiveness as a way of acting, and the emotions and feelings associated with being wronged (and the memory of it that goes along with it), like anger, annoyance, that sense of injustice, broken trust, etc. Those feelings don't mean you're not forgiving the person, it just means you still either feel hurt by that event or are remembering that hurt.

Forgiveness, I think, is getting back to that relationship even if you remember what they did. Forgiving is not forgetting, so it also means being wary of putting yourself or letting them into a situtation where you know they've hurt you before. Thats very hard, they aren't perfect, but neither am I. I want people to help me with the things I have trouble with, and to forgive me when I stuff up, and so I want to help others, hopefully grow past being the odd jerk on occassion. If they ask for forgiveness, they've really humbled themselves as they know they've acted wrongly in some way. Building trust again takes time, but its worth it.

Thats not saying that if you're treated like dirt, you should go back for more. Its saying, that yeh, you're a person that makes mistakes and will probably make some more in the future, just like me, and sometimes I'm going to tell it to you straight you're being a jerk, and sometimes, I'll let it go, because I know you're trying, particularly if they ask for forgiveness. Its so easy to be hurt by someone, even if they don't realise it or mean it and most relationships are messy-they slip slide around trying to find that 'yeh, neat', no misunderstandings ground. That takes time. often with more than a few of those ackward messy moments. But some relationships obviously don't work though, so forgiveness is then a case of, ''yeh, I forgive you, but its broken and irreparable-because its not a good relationshp for the both of us, so I wish you well in life'',

Also, some people say the stupidest things sometimes too. I do it all the time, and then I immediately regret it. I try to go for consistancy in action, and hopefully my tongue will catch up with my heart and head one day.

The grudge part is really hard though, particularly as it comes from being hurt, being wronged by the other person and no one wants to be hurt, so its almost like a kind of protective response to prevent further hurt. That sense of injustice can be very strong, I have that too. It may sound kind of odd, but I would try praying for them. You may not be able to stand in their presence and be comfortable, but at least you're trying to do reverse the grudge with a merciful act by asking God to bless them-which is really asking God to help you wish them well. I had that at work once and it took years to let go of a grudge, but it actually worked after a while and I found the grudge decrease over time and then disappear and now I'm genuinely happy for them.

I really wonder how priests listen to confessions, without being narky or something to the people of their parish afterwards. They must hear it all, but still try to act decently to everyone. Thats just amazing to me.

I hope it goes well for you.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1327646212' post='2376078']
Looking for any input from the pham

I'm writing this on my phone, so the editing will probably smell of elderberries and will probably be rambling

Okay, here goes. I don't really understand forgiveness. What is expected of the person granting forgiveness? I've had many times where I feel like I was wronged (I'm not saying I was in the right or wrong, just that I felt I was wronged), and the person who offended me asked for forgiveness, and I granted it because I feel that is the accepted social protocol. But on the inside I'm still burning up and pissed off. Not only that, but I know that this colors the way I interact with them after that, and it's not really the same. To top it off, I hold grudges quite easily. I still remember incidents from 10+ years ago that piss me off. On the flip side there have been a lot of occasions where I apologize but I still think I was right.

I guess that makes me a phony. I do not understand how anybody could buy other people's bs though. Let me illustrate with a hypothetical. A friend gets a few drinks in him. He says something degrading to me and appears to mean it. I would probably say the meannest truth about him. Then the next day he apologizes. I forgive him, and say that I'm sorry too. But inside I'm thinking that people don't change over night, he still said and meant, and most likely thinks that about me. Now everytime I see him I pretend everything is normal but I'm thinking he's still the same guy who said that poo.

Anyhow, my thumbs are tired. Feel free to berate me for being full of poo
[/quote]

I think that you are being very honest about where you are at re forgiveness.

For me personally, forgiveness is a journey not an event. It begins with the desire to forgive, praying to forgive - while all the negative feelilngs persist. It is about trying TRYING not to invest in those feelings. I think I can say safely that invariably as long as I persist in the desire to forgive and trying not to invest in negative feelings, sooner or later (often much later) I find that I have forgiven and my negative feelings about the person subside.

I think it is different if a person is continually offensive, then the same negative feelings are being 'prodded' by the other and will continually arise as often as I am offended and the natural human result of such behaviour. Prudence, to my mind, may indicate that this is a person I need to avoid if possible. And with avoiding that person negative feelings are not aroused through continual offensive behaviour. The other alternative is to speak gently with the person about their insults or whatever - however, sometimes this is just not feasible. Because of circumstances, I may not be able to avoid such a person. This is when I need to do the best that I can. It is the natural human reaction to have negative feelings towards bad behaviour and insults. Our feelings are always amoral - neither right nor wrong. It is what we do with our feelings that introduces right and wrong or morality.

Each situation in life may call for a different response with no hard and fast rules that will apply in every single situation. This is where the Gifts of The Holy Spirit at Confirmation come into play: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, fortitude, piety and fear of The Lord. They interact at a supernatural level and inform the conscious level as it were.

We are imperfect beings in an imperfect world. We are called to try, while success is in the Hands of The Lord. I think that we really need to accept ourselves as imperfect - try though we may and are called to try for what is perfection and to strive for it. Failure can arouse much joy and gratitude, thanksgiving, for The Lord's Loving and Understanding Mercy. Our own failures and acknowledging them too can bring about understanding and compassion, mercy, towards the failures of others.

[Sarah147]

[quote name='MaryJJD' timestamp='1327648996' post='2376084']
Actually, I think you're very honest, and human like the rest of us.

I also think there is a key difference between forgiveness as a way of acting, and the emotions and feelings associated with being wronged (and the memory of it that goes along with it), like anger, annoyance, that sense of injustice, broken trust, etc. Those feelings don't mean you're not forgiving the person, it just means you still either feel hurt by that event or are remembering that hurt.

Forgiveness, I think, is getting back to that relationship even if you remember what they did. Forgiving is not forgetting, so it also means being wary of putting yourself or letting them into a situtation where you know they've hurt you before. Thats very hard, they aren't perfect, but neither am I. I want people to help me with the things I have trouble with, and to forgive me when I stuff up, and so I want to help others, hopefully grow past being the odd jerk on occassion. If they ask for forgiveness, they've really humbled themselves as they know they've acted wrongly in some way. Building trust again takes time, but its worth it.

[/quote]