Genocide Denial

[MissMaro]

I wanted to get other Catholics' opinions on whether it's right or wrong to ostracize someone who denies the Armenian genocide. I have a friend who just published several articles stating that the Armenian Genocide not only wasn't a genocide, but that the Turks were justified in what they did. Not only do I consider his position historically inaccurate and immoral, (and weird because he isn't Turkish; he's Israeli) but I really don't think I can be his friend anymore. However, he has been tutoring me in a totally unrelated subject, and I don't want to give up studying that subject. Is it okay for me to keep studying with him, even though he holds views that make my blood boil? Am I obligated to avoid him or is it okay to spend time with people who hold offensive, contrary-to-fact views?

Before these views of his came to light, I would have considered him- while not a saint- at least to be a decent guy and my friend. Now I just don't know what to think. Part of me doesn't want to lose of friend, but 110% can't see being friends with someone who approves of what the Turks did in 1915 and before (and after for that matter.) Does anyone have any wisdom for me? Thanks.

[4588686]

[quote name='MissMaro' timestamp='1327117994' post='2372475']
I wanted to get other Catholics' opinions on whether it's right or wrong to ostracize someone who denies the Armenian genocide. I have a friend who just published several articles stating that the Armenian Genocide not only wasn't a genocide, but that the Turks were justified in what they did. Not only do I consider his position historically inaccurate and immoral, (and weird because he isn't Turkish; he's Israeli) but I really don't think I can be his friend anymore. However, he has been tutoring me in a totally unrelated subject, and I don't want to give up studying that subject. Is it okay for me to keep studying with him, even though he holds views that make my blood boil? Am I obligated to avoid him or is it okay to spend time with people who hold offensive, contrary-to-fact views?

Before these views of his came to light, I would have considered him- while not a saint- at least to be a decent guy and my friend. Now I just don't know what to think. Part of me doesn't want to lose of friend, but 110% can't see being friends with someone who approves of what the Turks did in 1915 and before (and after for that matter.) Does anyone have any wisdom for me? Thanks.
[/quote]


There are any number of reasons why your friend may be a moral idiot. Being Israeli probably has nothing to do with it. Some Israelis are uncomfortable equating any systematic destruction of a people with the holocaust and therefore have tried to propose that the Armenian genocide wasn't really a genocide but the tragic collateral damage of a civil war. Israel has had historically strong ties to Turkey so I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't talk too terrible much about the genocide since the Turks are pretty touchy about it. But those are the only two possible connections I can think of off the top of my head. But I really doubt this has anything to do with his nationality.

What subject has he been educating you about, if you don't mind my asking?

[MissMaro]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1327119289' post='2372493']
There are any number of reasons why your friend may be a moral idiot. Being Israeli probably has nothing to do with it. Some Israelis are uncomfortable equating any systematic destruction of a people with the holocaust and therefore have tried to propose that the Armenian genocide wasn't really a genocide but the tragic collateral damage of a civil war. Israel has had historically strong ties to Turkey so I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't talk too terrible much about the genocide since the Turks are pretty touchy about it. But those are the only two possible connections I can think of off the top of my head. But I really doubt this has anything to do with his nationality.

What subject has he been educating you about, if you don't mind my asking?
[/quote]

Modern Hebrew, actually. And we're kind of near the end of the textbook series, but it might take us several months to get through it at the pace we're going.

I wasn't saying his nationality explained his thinking that the murder of over a million civilians was justified. My point is that his opinion would have surprised me considerably less if he were Turkish. But I do know that Israelis are often unwilling to equate the Armenian genocide with the Holocaust. That bothers me a little- considering what happened- but not nearly as much as someone actively approving of a genocide and talking about it as if it were an absolute necessity.

[Kia ora]

Stupid opinions can be grown out of. Friendships are harder to patch up. Who knows, maybe with your support, he might change his mind?

[Aloysius]

honestly I don't think you should ostracize him at all. if he is exhibiting some sort of blatantly racist opinions or behaviors it might be a different story, but a differing historical opinion, no matter how egregious the implications of it, should never impede a friendship. it should be, on the contrary, the start of a very good friendship.

[b]"It is not merely true that a creed unites men. Nay, a difference of creed unites men - so long as it is a clear difference. A boundary unites. Many a magnanimous Moslem and chivalrous Crusader must have been nearer to each other, because they were both dogmatists, than any two agnostics. "I say God is One," and "I say God is One but also Three," that is the beginning of a good quarrelsome, manly friendship."[/b][b] -GK Chesterton[/b]

so yeah, stand up and be a friend who disagrees and argues.

[beatitude]

I don't really know what I would do in this situation. Denial of genocide and similar crimes is something that interests me very much (it's relevant to my doctorate) and from my research I would say that it's true that there is usually some sort of present-day political consideration behind it. But it's very hard to deal with it in such a personal situation as this.

I think the best thing you can do is pray. Pray a novena to the Holy Souls in honour of the victims of that genocide, and ask for God to be with your friend and guide him to a compassionate understanding of history.

[MissMaro]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1327138848' post='2372556']
Stupid opinions can be grown out of. Friendships are harder to patch up. Who knows, maybe with your support, he might change his mind?
[/quote]

Hmmm. I doubt it. He's a grad student in genocide studies, and he doesn't take anything anyone who disagrees with him says very seriously.

[MissMaro]

Aloysius,

The problem is that he seems to have anti-Armenian and anti-Christian opinions actually. He blamed the Armenians totally for what happened, and he spoke disparagingly of Christian attitudes towards Muslims, never mentioning once that the Turks were treating the Christian minority who lived back then very badly, and that's why the Christians in and outside of Turkey were pressuring them to give the Christians more rights.

I have an Armenian friend who I am much closer to as well, and it totally enrages me that if he had lived back then, he easily could have been murdered and my denialist friend would have approved of it as self-defense.

And I think I disagree. I'd never be friends with a Holocaust denier. How could I be?

The problem with remaining friends with him too, is that it makes it look like I'm okay with what he said, when I'm not. I don't want to seem to approve of him, and I'm not very articulate at arguing in person, unfortunately. I might convince someone of something in writing, but I never even get the words out in person.

[MissMaro]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1327149992' post='2372590']
I don't really know what I would do in this situation. Denial of genocide and similar crimes is something that interests me very much (it's relevant to my doctorate) and from my research I would say that it's true that there is usually some sort of present-day political consideration behind it. But it's very hard to deal with it in such a personal situation as this.

I think the best thing you can do is pray. Pray a novena to the Holy Souls in honour of the victims of that genocide, and ask for God to be with your friend and guide him to a compassionate understanding of history.
[/quote]

You're right. I should start praying for him again. I used to pray for him, but I've slacked off lately.

[Era Might]

I have a friend who got upset recently because I expressed opposition to his football team. Kind of different from genocide, but he basically said that the team represents who he is and where he's from, and that he can't bear to hear it disparaged. I think his attachment is kind of childish, and I don't get it, but I guess it's his attachment. He also has some other opinions that bother me...in his own words, he doesn't like "n***ers" (not to be confused, he assures me, with black people). Nothing really offends me when uttered by people who I don't actually know, but I don't know if I can be friends with someone who uses the word "n***er" in this way. I've been considering whether to insist he not use it in front of me. He also constantly has to tell me how "hot" this or that woman is...I don't particularly care to hear that kind of stuff, not just because I'm married, but it's kind of childish (childishness is a theme here, if you haven't noticed).

I don't know...I don't think it's wrong for you to end your friendship over his denial of the genocide. The way I see it, if you were just arguing a historical point with a stranger, you should just agree to disagree and chalk it up to a "historical disagreement." But friendship is something different...and if you have such a basic disagreement, even if neither of you are technically "right" or "wrong," I don't think you should go through your life putting up with someone that is at odds with who you are or what is deeply important to you. It's unfortunate that a friendship must end because of it, but I think your conception of friendship will be strengthened by taking it more seriously than public relationships.

Or maybe you can work out your disagreement in a way that you can keep your friendship...as kia said, stupid opinions can be grown out of...or maybe you can both grow as individuals somehow by hashing out your disagreement. IDK. Interesting situation though.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Era Might

[Anastasia13]

Thank you for caring about this. As someone of Armenian heritage, I have simply refrained from political discussions with the rare 1/2 Turks that I have met. (Never met a full-blooded turk.) I hesitate to be involved in inflammatory discussions. They are not my close friends, however if the chance had happened that they were able to be, I doubt that it would happen because I would not freely discuss certain things comfortably with them. I do not know of any others I have met who would simply deny that the genocide happened.

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1327119289' post='2372493']
There are any number of reasons why your friend may be a moral idiot. Being Israeli probably has nothing to do with it. Some Israelis are uncomfortable equating any systematic destruction of a people with the holocaust and therefore have tried to propose that the Armenian genocide wasn't really a genocide but the tragic collateral damage of a civil war. Israel has had historically strong ties to Turkey so I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't talk too terrible much about the genocide since the Turks are pretty touchy about it. But those are the only two possible connections I can think of off the top of my head. But I really doubt this has anything to do with his nationality. [/quote]
Politcally/Economically, Turkey and Israel have been sort of allies or at least trading partners. Therefore, as an only sort of friend in the region, Israel has not been quick to ****-off their "friend" by questioning this line of reasoning in light of historic evidence.

[quote name='MissMaro' timestamp='1327159186' post='2372633']
Hmmm. I doubt it. He's a grad student in genocide studies, and he doesn't take anything anyone who disagrees with him says very seriously.
[/quote]
Pity, I take this gentleman seriously. [url="http://www.clarku.edu/faculty/facultybio.cfm?id=722"]http://www.clarku.ed...ybio.cfm?id=722[/url] A Turkish scholar, educated in Ankara, from NE Turkey, Faculty at

[b]Altuğ Taner Akçam[/b] (born October 23, 1953) is a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people"]Turkish[/url] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian"]historian[/url][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#cite_note-Clark170608-0"][1][/url][/sup] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociology"]sociologist[/url]. He is one of the first Turkish academics to acknowledge and openly discuss the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide"]Armenian Genocide[/url],[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#cite_note-1"][2][/url][/sup] and is recognized as a "leading international authority" on the subject.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am#cite_note-splcenter.org-2"][3][/url][/sup] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taner_Ak%C3%A7am"]http://en.wikipedia....aner_Ak%C3%A7am[/url]

If Armenian nationalism led to any sort of threat to the empire, it fell short of the geographically systematic, gendercide-containing, government planned attack set on cruelly emptying the empire of Armenians.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Light and Truth

[Aloysius]

maybe I'm weird, but I have no problem being friends with people even if they have horrible opinions on any number of things. I am friends with people who do not agree with me that what the British did to the Irish during the famine amounted to genocide, I have friends who have never even heard of the Armenian genocide, I have friends who think we should just nuke the whole middle east, I have friends who think babies are just parasites if the mother doesn't want them. These are all people that I would never vote for for political office, but I am friends with them. friendship to me does not mean one must agree about things.

I would even be friends with someone who was a holocaust denier or an armenian genocide denier, or if they were anti-american or anti-Christian, though I would disagree adamently with them. the idea of ostracizing someone because of their ideas, no matter how ridiculously wrong they might be, strikes me as rather insecure about one's own ideas and is generally repugnant to me. what if this friend was your brother? would you cut him out of the family for being an armenian genocide denier?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1327139538' post='2372559']
[b]"It is not merely true that a creed unites men. Nay, a difference of creed unites men - so long as it is a clear difference. A boundary unites. Many a magnanimous Moslem and chivalrous Crusader must have been nearer to each other, because they were both dogmatists, than any two agnostics. "I say God is One," and "I say God is One but also Three," that is the beginning of a good quarrelsome, manly friendship."[/b][b] -GK Chesterton[/b][/quote]
I like this a lot.

[4588686]

[quote name='MissMaro' timestamp='1327159186' post='2372633']
Hmmm. I doubt it. [b]He's a grad student in genocide studies[/b], and he doesn't take anything anyone who disagrees with him says very seriously.
[/quote]



He should look for another field of study. You can argue to what extent there was a systematic effort to exterminate the Armenian people as such by the Ottoman Empire's ruling class. But to deny that the killing which occurred were atrocities is beyond appalling.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Hasan

[4588686]

It's also particularly ironic since Lemkin coined the term genocide to describe what the Ottoman Empire did to it's Armenian population.