The Kingdom And The Maus: A Heathen's Tale

[Guest Knowsis]

I am a heathen. It's true!

I am not baptized. I am not confirmed. I've never voluntarily attended Mass, or taken Communion. I don't believe in Jesus Christ, I don't buy into the Death and Ressurection, and I have a hard time with the concept of 'God'.

"What are you doing here, then?" I hear you ask.

Fear, actually, and not the kind you think.

But first, a small history.

I was educated in the public school system until seventh grade, at which point I was enrolled in a Catholic middle school. Young and (relatively) intelligent, I smiled and nodded for the "Religion classes", pretending to care, filling in the answers on the sheet like a good drone. The Bible was much like any other textbook; it had the answers, if you knew where to look and could read between the lines. It really didn't matter to me: I honestly did not care about what they were saying, it was all just white noise.

Locally, my Wholesome Midwestern City is known for having a fairly old Jesuit college linked to a High School of the same name (Anybody who can figure this out, plus ten points to you, you clever dogs, you!). My dad being an alum, and having nothing but high praise for the Jebbies, enrolled me in said linked Catholic High School. It was around this time that I actually started [i]listening[/i] to the lectures, the philosophy, hearing what the teachers and priests were [i]trying[/i] to say.

Which was good, they liked that.

What they didn't like was me asking questions.

"If a Divine Plan exists, why do human have free will?" "If God is real, why hasn't he sent anymore prophets or angels to an obviously suffering and sinful world?" "If God truly does possess an infinite capacity for love and forgiveness, why all the hate for gays?" "Why does God use tragedy and suffering to test our faith? I thought he loved us." "If God laid down the Ten Commandments, why doesn't he punish people for violating them?"...The list was endless.

It wasn't that I actively sought out conflict, or hated them for being Christian, not in the least. It just, well...It didn't make any sense. Not then, not now. So full of contradiction and double standards.

Parts of the message, I can admit, are beautiful, wonderful statements: Love others. Be good. Do no harm. Show mercy and compassion, always, even when it pains you. Make no mistake, Catholicism! I have heard the Good News; I'm just not sure it's all good.

Despite every sentiment of love and kindess, there are messages of hate. Vengence. Exclusionism. People the world over use the text you so vigorously defend as a beacon of hope as justification, and even impetus, for evil.

People ask me "Maus (don't ask), if you like what Catholics are saying, why not convert?"

Answer: You people scare the ever loving...y'know...out of me. You accept a book and its contents as an aritcle of faith, as proof and plan of God. You accept without question something you can never see, never touch, never feel (in the quantifiable, physical sort of way)...

And that doesn't bother you?

I guess what I'm asking is, how do you...I don't know...stay Christian? How exactly, can you have faith? Or are you believers becuase the alternative is just too terrible for you to contemplate?

[Amppax]

First of all, I would guess you went to St. Xavier High School, and then to Xavier University. You can send the 10 points via check and/or money order. Go Big Moe

And second of all, accept without question? Really? you know everyone on this phorum well enough to state that definitively?

As to how I stay Christian, I'll put it this way. Its not, as you put it, that the alternative is too terrible to contemplate, but that Christianity is too good to ignore. I've put quite a bit of study during my admittedly young life into this issue. My reason's for staying Christian are twofold. First of all, reason. I find Christianity to be a reasonable explanation of the world, and one that has stood the test of time. But more importantly, my personal experience in prayer has lead me to believe as I believe. I've had experiences that for me are more tangible than any touch, more eminently knowable than any sensory experience. Have I ever doubted or questioned my beliefs? Yes. But ultimately its not that the alternative is too terrible, rather that the alternative is too easy, and too common place. That's why I'm Christian.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Knowsis' timestamp='1326998973' post='2371527']
Fear, actually, and not the kind you think.
[/quote]

so you're not afraid of hellfire. This is not a question, but a statement. Cuz I fill like it.

[quote]But first, my entire life story.[/quote]
jk jk

[quote]I was educated in the public school system until seventh grade, at which point I was enrolled in a Catholic middle school. Young and (relatively) intelligent, I smiled and nodded for the "Religion classes", pretending to care, filling in the answers on the sheet like a good drone. The Bible was much like any other textbook; it had the answers, if you knew where to look and could read between the lines. It really didn't matter to me: I honestly did not care about what they were saying, it was all just white noise.[/quote]

"When I was a child, I thought as a child . . ." Just to touch upon something here, a lot of anti-religious people raise a big fuss about the religious instruction of children being one big brainwash to make them servants of some dubious and malicious authority. I'm not accusing you of this however, but I just want to say it can go both ways. Secular children exist and those with parents of a more hostile attitude towards religion "indoctrinate" their children in the same way. Most children grow up in a religious, or nominally religious setting so the data is (are, if you're a stickler for grammar) more abundant for these children, but as secularism gains popularity I think we can then do a better comparison between the groups.

Also, childhood and adolescence are critical periods for development and help set up the trajectory for adult life. The Catholic Church recognizes this so she mandates education that will lead children in the religion. That does not mean it should stop there. Answers are given to children are the way they are because children have a limited capacity to understand that. OBVIOUSLY as we enter adulthood those same answers are not going to cut it. This doesn't mean that religion is a fairy-tale simply because it is simplified for a younger audience.

That was a bit of a tangent, my apologies. Not accusing you of holding any of these views but feel it's something to be addressed.

[quote]
What they didn't like was me asking questions.[/quote]

Most of your questions are good and fair. There are great doctors of the church that have helped to answer them. Some more learned people would be able to point you in their direction. I'm only a student myself so I do not have the exact references on hand to cover the whole spectrum of your inquiry.

The "why all the hate for gays" however is more about human nature than that of God. We shouldn't hate gays. God doesn't hate the gays, even though he reviles sexual sin, included but not limited to sodomy. There are only about 10 thousand threads or so on this site alone about the topic, so run a search if you're interested. I won't derail the thread here.

[quote]It wasn't that I actively sought out conflict, or hated them for being Christian, not in the least. It just, well...It didn't make any sense. Not then, not now. So full of contradiction and double standards.[/quote]

I could say that's just a matter of perception. Not everything, in this case your contradtictions and double standards, is instantly what it appears to be. Sometimes there are layers of rich complexity that help bring clarity to a perceived contradiction. Your questions here cover a very wide scope. It might be worth your while to narrow your questions, if you are in fact interested, on knowing what we believe and why.

[quote]Despite every sentiment of love and kindess, there are messages of hate. Vengence. Exclusionism. People the world over use the text you so vigorously defend as a beacon of hope as justification, and even impetus, for evil.[/quote]

People use good things all of the time for evil. That doesn't make the good thing suddenly evil. There's nothing bad about a knife, and whether I use said knife to slice bread or to stab someone in the face, says more about me than about the knife.

These messages of hate that you're speaking of . . . this may sound like a copout but again it says more about the imperfect people that adhere to the religion. I won't take the "no true Scotsman" route, because I can't gauge someone's sincerity of belief, but even sincere and faithful people commit evil and do messed up things.

We should maintain perspective however of all the good the Church has done (things that are so embedded in our present culture that we take their origins for granted) with the bad.

[quote]Answer: You people scare the ever loving...y'know...out of me. You accept a book and its contents as an aritcle of faith, as proof and plan of God. You accept without question something you can never see, never touch, never feel (in the quantifiable, physical sort of way)...[/quote]

I accept the cannon as the infallible little "w" word of God, yes. I don't believe that it is [i]proof[/i] of God and I don't believe it is a "plan" of God in the same sense that protestants tend to. It actually seems to me that you are conflating Catholic theology with popular protestant ideas. I don't know why this is, but it's the vibe I'm getting.

And yes it's hard to believe in something that my senses don't affirm. It is called faith though.

And I want to point out that empiricism is not the only way to understand the world, it is but one vehicle, that springs up from another epistemology: philosophy. Science is actually based on the philosophy that the universe is knowable. The modern, but fallible, belief that empiricism is the only/most reliable method is, you guessed it, based on a philosophy. Some things can not be quantified, parsed up, and falsified. Such things do not suddenly become suspect because they exceed the bounds of what science can understand.

[quote]
And that doesn't bother you?[/quote]

No because your assumptions about people who seriously study and practice their religion, rather than those who are only nominally or culturally religious, are largely untrue. There are however large swaths of people, of both religious and secular stripes, that don't understand or investigate why they believe the things they do, so I understand where your assumptions are coming from.


[quote]I guess what I'm asking is, how do you...I don't know...stay Christian? How exactly, can you have faith? Or are you believers becuase the alternative is just too terrible for you to contemplate?[/quote]

You assume that belief allows you to avoid contemplating the "terrible alternative." For neurotic people like me, it doesn't. But even then oblivion after death doesn't even seem all that terrible. I can imagine worse things, like being reincarnated into a tree or something. In fact when I was a child the concept of eternity terrified me and kept me up at night, nearly shaking and nauseous. I mean something that just . . . never ends? I mean when something is boring or terrible, or even good, in life we can always tell ourselves it will eventually end. Everything we experience on this Earth ends or will end. It can be downright frightening to contemplate something that just never ever ends that you can't get out of. In fact without the proper understanding of God, I don't know why people desire Eternity. Perhaps they haven't given it enough thought.

How I persevere in faith is a loaded question. And my hands are getting real cold cause the furnace is busted. Hope I helped give ya something to think about.

peace bro

Edited January 21, 2012 by Ice_nine

[mortify]

[quote name='Knowsis' timestamp='1326998973' post='2371527']
Answer: You people scare the ever loving...y'know...out of me. You accept a book and its contents as an aritcle of faith, as proof and plan of God. You accept without question something you can never see, never touch, never feel (in the quantifiable, physical sort of way)...[/quote]

Usually only very ignorant people begin a comment with, "You people..." But hey, I'll give you a chance! How about starting with the fact that we don't simply accept things. That we do in fact welcome challenges and seek answers... and EEK! Actually arrive at a JUSTIFIED faith!

Just a thought.

[quote]
I guess what I'm asking is, how do you...I don't know...stay Christian? How exactly, can you have faith? Or are you believers becuase the alternative is just too terrible for you to contemplate?
[/quote]

I have faith by the grace of God, but my faith is justified. Catholicism is smart, beautiful, and joyful. What's your alternative?

Let's see if you're more than a one time poster

[4588686]

[quote name='Knowsis' timestamp='1326998973' post='2371527']
I am a heathen. It's true!

I am not baptized. I am not confirmed. I've never voluntarily attended Mass, or taken Communion. I don't believe in Jesus Christ, I don't buy into the Death and Ressurection, and I have a hard time with the concept of 'God'.

"What are you doing here, then?" I hear you ask.

Fear, actually, and not the kind you think.

[b]But first, a small history.[/b]
[/quote]


Interestingly enough, the bolded part was the point in your diatribe at which I became so bored that I stopped reading.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1327348426' post='2373914']
Interestingly enough, the bolded part was the point in your diatribe at which I became so bored that I stopped reading.
[/quote]

What the heck, be nice lol.

[Winchester]

This will end in lulz.

[4588686]

Insha'allah

[Winchester]

Don't ruin this for me with your Islamophilia.

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1327367622' post='2374144']
Don't ruin this for me with your Islamophilia.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.plunderguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/miss-turkey-2.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

[img]http://content7.flixster.com/rtactor/40/61/40613_pro.jpg[/img]

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1327373955' post='2374219']
[img]http://content7.flixster.com/rtactor/40/61/40613_pro.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Mine's better.

[Winchester]

Wrong.

[ardillacid]

Sorry winnie, hassy is right

[Winchester]

It's nothing against her. Liz 10 is just better looking.