Traditionalism & Fascism

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327025817' post='2371773']
I've known the late Dr. Warren Carroll (founder of Christendom College) and his wife Anne (president of Seton High School) most of my life, and I own [i]Christ the King, Lord of History[/i], as well as most of Dr. Carroll's history books (which are all excellent, btw). I studied history under Dr. Carroll in one of the last classes to graduate before Dr. Carroll started having his health problems, and have a tremendous amount of respect for the man.

I feel completely confident in saying that the Carrolls have done more for the good of the Church than anyone posting on Phatmass, so I think this nonsense being posted is completely out of line. I can say for a fact that neither Dr. Carroll nor his wife are fascists.

The issue, I think, concerns their views of the Spanish Civil War and Franco. Franco, while "Fascist," and no saint, was Catholic, was far from a Hitler-like monster. His forces were opposing extremely evil and viciously and fanatically anti-Catholic Communist forces who wished to wipe out the Church in Spain. Carroll's sympathies were not primary fascist, but with the Carlists who wanted to restore the rule of the Spanish monarchy. Good knowledge of facts of the Spanish Civil War, and the vicious and ruthless anti-Catholicism of the Spanish Communists is necessary before bashing Dr. or Mrs. Carroll over their views. If you're interested in learning about Dr. Carroll's views on the Spanish Civil War in more depth, I'd recommend reading his book [i][url="http://www.amazon.com/Last-Crusade-Warren-H-Carroll/dp/0931888670/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327024488&sr=1-1"]The Last Crusade[/url], [/i]as well as his excellent [url="http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Communist-Revolution/dp/093188859X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327025162&sr=1-1"][i]The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution[/i][/url].

The claim that Warren or Anne Carroll is "madly in love with fascism" is complete nonsense, as the Carroll's do not endorse fascism as any kind of political ideal, and their writings (including [i]Christ the King[/i]) are strongly opposed to Mussolini and the Italian Fascists, as well as strongly anti-Nazi.

They are certainly not anti-semitic, as Dr. Carroll strongly denounces anti-Semitism as coming from Satan.

(And, incidentally, the Carroll's are not trads, so their views are irrelevant to discussing those of traditionalism.)

While [i]Christ the King[/i] can be a bit simplistic, and "dumbed down" from the works of Dr. Carroll, that's because it's written for junior high and high school students. While you may not agree with everything in it it, it's definitely a hundred times better than most of the politically-correct garbage that are high-school history textbooks today. I'd recommend reading Dr. Carroll's books if you're interested in learning about his views in more detail.

The works of the Carrolls certainly do not make me ashamed to be a Catholic, but proud, and the trashing of Mrs. Carroll going on here is ignorant and shameful.
[/quote]
Off topic, but do they happen to be descended from the colonial-era Catholic Carrolls?

[arfink]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327025817' post='2371773']
Dr. Carroll stuff...
[/quote]

Huzzah for Dr. Carroll, I loved the guy's history books. As an added 2 cents, here's my "TL;DR version" of Dr. Carroll's views of Franco:

Franco- So yeah, these Commies are causing alot of trouble. Anybody wanna help a bro out?
Hitler- Yeh bro, here some money n guns n stuff. You want to help conquor the world?
Franco- razzle dazzle story bro. Later though. Gotta go beat Commies.
Hitler- ... wut?
Franco- See ya sucka!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1326998756' post='2371524']
The subservience of the private sector to the 'national interest' and the right of the state to direct the private sector is an inherent aspect of modern, European fascism. But there is a lot more to fascism than that and the control exerted need not be direct government absorption (control here is ambiguous. In a general sense the state controls the private sector and corporations in every state) of all corporations. There is a lot more to fascism than it's economic policies and a lot of what supports fascism philosophically can be found in the proponents of the Counter-Enlightenment, particularly Catholics like Joseph de Maistre. And it is from this Reactionary Catholicism that fascism sprang. Not all fascists are Catholic (although there is a strong correlation there. Look at which states became fascist, mostly South American and Catholic European countries) but the intellectual currents that fascists pulled was in large part constructed by Catholic thinkers. I don't think the link necessarily exists but it often has and because of that there is often a thin line between Traditionalists and fascists. As seen on Fight Eaters.
[/quote]
There's no doubt that "social justice" can lead people to accept the rule of wise overlords. Fascism can be a bit hard to nail down, especially with people adopting the term as a proper name of their party. I think at its simplest, we can say it's a system wherein the government does not seek to abolish private property, but positively controls that property through regulation or legislation (beyond simply protecting others from the violation of property). I suppose nationalism has to be in there, but I think that's more a result of strong central governments than an inherent trait. Probably starched uniforms must also be present, and some kind of salute.

That leaves plenty to argue about, as what is control beyond protection of property will be a source of incessant contention.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1327076941' post='2372010']
Huzzah for Dr. Carroll, I loved the guy's history books. As an added 2 cents, here's my "TL;DR version" of Dr. Carroll's views of Franco:

Franco- So yeah, these Commies are causing alot of trouble. Anybody wanna help a bro out?
Hitler- Yeh bro, here some money n guns n stuff. You want to help conquor the world?
Franco- razzle dazzle story bro. Later though. Gotta go beat Commies.
Hitler- ... wut?
Franco- See ya sucka!
[/quote]
lol that is a great summation of what happened.

[mortify]

[img]http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2009/03/423214.jpg[/img]


[From a post on Fr Angelo Geiger's website, MaryVictrix.com ([url="http://maryvictrix.wordpress.com/2011/12/26/i-am-dreaming-of-a-white-propaganda/#comment-7452"]http://maryvictrix.w...a/#comment-7452[/url]) ]

"It is true that the faith is neither liberal nor conservative. But everyone knows that the vast majority of Catholics who support abortion are political liberals and are operating on the principles of modern political liberalism. On the other hand, it is verifiably a fact that the[i] [color=#FF0000][b]traditionalists[/b][/color][/i] with whom I disagree and the growing “non-traditionalist” sympathizers that orbit them are conservatives[i], [color=#FF0000][b]many of them of the radical right-wing stripe.[/b][/color][/i] According to Father (now Bishop) [url="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-2005.1990.tb01413.x/full"]Anthony Fisher[/url], OP, Archbishop Lefebvre himself had links with the counter-revolutionary movement Action Française, and “prominent among his supporters and founders have been members of [color=#FF0000][i][b]Europe’s old families[/b][/i][/color] who feel betrayed by a democratizing Church.” Father Fisher goes on:
[quote]
Lefebvre had offered as models of the Catholic Church and state Franco’s Spain, Salazar’s Portugal, Galtieri’s Argentina and Pinochet’s Chile. The last hiding place of Paul Touvier, who was quite recently arrested (circa 1990) and committed to trial for crimes against humanity, was a Lefebvrist monastery at Nice.[/quote]

"There are many other examples that would secure the accuracy of my account. The point is that while this may not be homogenously true, it is generally true and establishes a point about which many traditionalist sympathizers are ignorant or simply choose to ignore, or about which they agree because they are also ideologues, namely, that[i][color=#FF0000][i][b] this movement is not simply about liturgy and dogma. It is, on the contrary, a social, cultural and political ideology, one that is elitist and in my view leaning very far toward [u]fascism[/u].[/b][/i][/color][/i]

"I would not be as alarmed by it if those who sympathized with traditionalism were willing to purge their ranks, but that is not really the case. Bishop Williamson did not get thrown overboard until rather recently. Even so, as far as I know, he is still in good standing with the SSPX, even if he has been marginalized. To the extent that Bishop Williamson has been corrected, it is really only because he has become a liability. For example, [url="http://sungenisandthejews.blogspot.com/2009/04/ferrara-repudiates-holocaust-views-of.html"]Christopher Ferrara[/url] has written that if traditionalists find it to be their duty to criticize the magisterium, then they must also criticize their own when necessary: “For to remain silent in the face of what Bishop Williamson has said would be to endanger the entire cause to which we have dedicated ourselves by allowing it to be attached to his errors.” All this being said,[i] [color=#FF0000][b]antisemitism[/b][/color][/i] remains the soft, white underbelly of the traditionalist movement. Internal criticism among traditionalists is rare, and then mostly because a lack of such criticism appears to weaken the traditionalist case. But most often it is feared that internal criticism will harm rather than protect traditionalist principles. Indeed, the first comment this post expressed a concern that my criticism of Fellay would do harm to the movement. I submit that honest criticism can never to any real harm. It is only the failure to deal with evil that causes harm.

Edited January 21, 2012 by mortify

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1327023772' post='2371733']
That's a false conflation. The question is about Traditionalism not conservative Catholicism. There is an intellectual link between fascism and the Traditional Catholicism that emerged with the counter-Enlightenment. They aren't the same thing but the link are there.
[/quote]
I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about here. The Catholic traditionalism being discussed in this thread refers to Catholics that favor the old Tridentine form of the mass and other sacraments, and a preference for pre-Vatican II religious practices. As it is a post-Vatican II movement, it would have nothing to do with the origins of fascism in the 1920s. You may be referring to the Traditionalists of 1930s Spain who sided with Franco against the Communists, but that is a different than what is usually meant by Catholic traditionalism today.

As Fascism was started in Italy by Benito Mussolini, who was an anti-clerical atheist and admirer of Neitzsche, Fascism's origins were not rooted in Catholic traditionalism.

My remark about liberal Catholics and Communism was not entirely facetious, as plenty of "progressive" Catholics have been involved with Marxism and the "Liberation Theology" movement which supported Marxist revolutionaries. However, much as I despise "liberal Catholicism," it would be just as stupid and inaccurate to to generally call all Catholic liberals Commies as it would be to call Traditionalists in general fascist.

[Socrates]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1327040348' post='2371904']
Off topic, but do they happen to be descended from the colonial-era Catholic Carrolls?
[/quote]
Dr. Carroll is not descended from Maryland Carrolls, but his ancestors have lived in Maine since colonial days. Dr. Carroll was actually a convert to the Catholic Faith from a non-religious background.

I'm not sure where Mrs. Carroll's people came from, though I believe she's of Irish descent.

[Socrates]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1327076941' post='2372010']
Huzzah for Dr. Carroll, I loved the guy's history books. As an added 2 cents, here's my "TL;DR version" of Dr. Carroll's views of Franco:

Franco- So yeah, these Commies are causing alot of trouble. Anybody wanna help a bro out?
Hitler- Yeh bro, here some money n guns n stuff. You want to help conquor the world?
Franco- razzle dazzle story bro. Later though. Gotta go beat Commies.
Hitler- ... wut?
Franco- See ya sucka!
[/quote]
Yeah, that's a pretty good summary.

I think the problem is that we in America have been conditioned to equate anything fascist with Nazism, and regard it as pure unadulterated evil.

Favoring Franco's forces over the brutally anti-Catholic Communists in the Spanish Civil War does not make one a fascist nor "in love with fascism."

And before jump to condemn Franco for accepting military aid from Hitler and Mussolini, we should keep in mind that we allied with Joseph Stalin, one of history's most brutal and bloodthirsty dictators--who was arguably even worse than Hitler--to defeat Hitler. The messy reality of war is usually not the neat clean story of pure Good vs. pure Evil we like it to be.

Those familiar with Dr. Carroll will know he had a great love for Spain and its Catholic heritage, which the Communists threatened to destroy.


Correction:
[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327023555' post='2371728']
Technically, the Nazis (Natural Socialists) were a different movement than the Fascists . . .
[/quote]
That should read "[b]National[/b] Socialists."
Not sure what they put in my drink that night.

I feel like an idiot.

[4588686]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRBrjt7z5Cw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRBrjt7z5Cw&feature=related[/url]

[ardillacid]

Yes, well we certainly shouldn't pray for those who persecute us

[4588686]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1327358398' post='2374042']
Yes, well we certainly shouldn't pray for those who persecute us
[/quote]

That's a complete dodge and you know it. The link between fascism and the 'Catholic right' is there. It can be seen theoretically in the intellectual history that lead to the development of fascism and it can be seen empirically in the history of particular fascist parties and states. I agree that his comment about the prayers for Hitler on his birthday were probably an unfair swipe, but the rest of his point was perfectly valid.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Hasan

[ardillacid]

Wow, putting words in my mouth much? I didn't even comment on the topic, I just thought the video you posted was pretty weak. He's upset that the Catholic Church prayed for Hitler and didn't excommunicated Nazis? I'm certain you and Hitchens can do better than that video

[4588686]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1327359143' post='2374048']
Wow, putting words in my mouth much? I didn't even comment on the topic, I just thought the video you posted was pretty weak. [/QUOTE]

You're right, I apologize.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1327359215' post='2374049']


You're right, I apologize.
[/quote]no worries, I should have omitted my post, it was tangential to the topic and trollish.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1327358146' post='2374038']
[Christopher Hitchens anti-Catholic bullcrap]
[/quote]
Godwin's Law strikes again!

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1327358804' post='2374045']
That's a complete dodge and you know it. The link between fascism and the 'Catholic right' is there. It can be seen theoretically in the intellectual history that lead to the development of fascism and it can be seen empirically in the history of particular fascist parties and states. I agree that his comment about the prayers for Hitler on his birthday were probably an unfair swipe, but the rest of his point was perfectly valid.
[/quote]
Of course, "it can be seen theoretically . . ." Using the fast-and-loose methodology of Hitchens and yourself, one can "theoretically" establish a "link" between absolutely any group of people and any other group of people.

In fact, one can much more accurately establish a link between Communism and the atheistic left. (Or fascism, for that matter, as its first serious leader, Benito Mussolini was an atheist.)

Neither Hitler nor the other Nazi party leaders were Catholics, and the Nazi party and the Catholic Church were opposed from the very beginning. This is well confirmed by the actual historical record. Pope Pius XI wrote an encyclical [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P11BRENN.HTM"][i]Mit Brennender Sorge[/i][/url] denouncing Nazism in 1937, and his successor Pope Pius XII saved more Jews from the Nazis than other individual during the Second World War.

Christopher Hitchens is full of poo.

A plethora of articles refuting such nonsense here: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/344"]The Church and the Holocaus[/url]t.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/chistory/PIUS12.htm"]More here[/url].


But what the heck, might as well stop hiding it and come clean. Every Sunday at my conservative FSSP Latin-Mass parish we hang up a picture of Adolf Hitler and red swastika banners (as we despise those hippie "God is Love" burlap banners so popular in liberal parishes), goose step about singing fervent hymns to Der Fuehrer, then listen attentively as the priest outlines the latest details of the secret Traditionalist plot to establish a fascist neo-Nazi dictatorship in America.
The rest of you are all doomed! DOOMED!!