Traditionalism & Fascism

[4588686]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1326870411' post='2370950']
Hi guys,

I've dabbled in Traditionalism and one of the most disturbing aspects I have found, is the underlying fascism and anti-semitism. I'm just wondering if any of you have also experienced the same? (Groups such as the SSPX and those exclusively for the Indult fall under "traditionalism")


[img]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/10/20/1319071041718/Richard-Williamson-007.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Yes. Isaiah Berlin wrote an excellent essay on this.



Look for [i]Joseph de Maistre and the Origins of Fascism[/i]

[dells_of_bittersweet]

I used Anne Carrol's traditionalist text book for history. She is in love with facism. I would say there is a connection.

[Laudate_Dominum]

That's dumb.

[Lilllabettt]

Re: "Christ the King, Lord of History, by Anne Carrol.

It actually almost made me feel embarassed to be Catholic - and I was reading it while dressed in a habit!

Not a fan.

[4588686]

Catholicism isn't inherently fascistic. Traditional Catholicism can be depending on how one defines traditional Catholicism. Literary speaking traditional Catholicism is not inherently fascistic. Catholicism predates the advent of fascism or even the clear notion of the European state. There is, however, a fairly clear link between the reactionary Catholic, Monarchical traditionalism, most intelligently articulated by Maistre, and fascism. Although as Aloysius pointed out, fascism comes in a variety of manifestations. Related to this is the issue of Continental (as opposed to much of Anglo) conservatism's strong link to fascism

This is why a place why Fish Eaters is a repulsive cesspit of antisemites and fascist sympathizers.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Hasan

[mortify]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326870693' post='2370952']
I've heard of things, like Mel Gibson popping off when he was drunk or something, but I don't think any of the traditionalists who I know and have known would think of endorsing fascism or anti-semitism. As a Traditional Latin Mass lover I take offense. Maybe you could be more specific. What made you think up these questions?
[/quote]

Brother Laudate, in response to your question, it was brought up by a homily said by Fr Angelo Geiger. He mentioned the underlying fascism and totalitarianism of the traditionalist movement, and I found myself in agreement. Now, there is a distinction between a Traditionalist, and someone that's traditional, and I think most of us can tell the difference. Anyway, here is the homily by the wise Father:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsGvx7Bv4Ac&lc=qR8hFURlJAzJIyy8W6gsyvT4MTPnr4NNO42S5xXQheE&context=C3b12aa9ADOEgsToPDskLUEYoryOUeWPkEbyBuc3Nw

[Winchester]

Again: Where do Traditionalists advocate government control or privately held corporations as part of Catholicism?

Of do we just like saying "fascist" because we think that equals anti-semitism?

[4588686]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1326991276' post='2371472']
Again: Where do Traditionalists advocate government control or privately held corporations as part of Catholicism?

Of do we just like saying "fascist" because we think that equals anti-semitism?
[/quote]



The subservience of the private sector to the 'national interest' and the right of the state to direct the private sector is an inherent aspect of modern, European fascism. But there is a lot more to fascism than that and the control exerted need not be direct government absorption (control here is ambiguous. In a general sense the state controls the private sector and corporations in every state) of all corporations. There is a lot more to fascism than it's economic policies and a lot of what supports fascism philosophically can be found in the proponents of the Counter-Enlightenment, particularly Catholics like Joseph de Maistre. And it is from this Reactionary Catholicism that fascism sprang. Not all fascists are Catholic (although there is a strong correlation there. Look at which states became fascist, mostly South American and Catholic European countries) but the intellectual currents that fascists pulled was in large part constructed by Catholic thinkers. I don't think the link necessarily exists but it often has and because of that there is often a thin line between Traditionalists and fascists. As seen on Fight Eaters.

[arfink]

Fascism is remarkably hard to pin down, as anyone who has attempted to study it knows. I would be willing to put forth the statement that very few governments which self-identified as fascists were actually textbook fascists. Most of the time such regimes crumbled into thinly-veiled dictatorships. Even Mussolini admitted that fascism was very hard to describe and that he didn't care; "We don't give a beaver dam about these empty terminologies and we despise those who are terrorized by these words." Large and in charge, so to speak.

All that said, I have known a few of my more traditionalist friends to (usually jokingly) pine for an authoritarian and theocratic state as an answer to the corruption and amorality of society, but I wouldn't say they're fascists. But that's mostly because I have a hard time really believing that fascism is a specialised thing you can do, as opposed to simple authoritarianism or dictatorship.

EDIT: Note that my notion of texbook fascism differs from what you'd see on Wikipedia. Wikipedia seems to state the tenants of fascism as follows:

-Nationalism
-Authoritarianism
-Social Darwinism
-Social Interventionism

Economically the fascists were not united, with various ideals being followed, including national corporatism, socialism, and syndicalism.
I would say most, if not all traditionalist Catholics would be opposed to social darwinism at least, if they were not opposed to social interventionism.

Edited January 19, 2012 by arfink

[Laudate_Dominum]

Meesa thinkin' trads come in all varieties. Disco-loving trads, anarcho-capitalist trads, bald-butted trads, q-tip head trads...

[Socrates]

It is no more accurate to say that Catholic traditionalism is tied to fascism and anti-semitism than to claim that liberal Catholicism is tied to Communism.

I've been attending an FSSP Latin Mass parish for close to two and a half years now, and have not heard anything remotely approaching anti-Semitism or fascism, despite the content of the sermons being quite un-pc. A visiting priest once gave a homily that was rather strongly monarchist, but monarchism is not the same thing as fascism.

Most of the people there seem pretty normal.


I think both the terms "anti-semitic" and "fascist" tend to be thrown around much too loosely by liberals to refer to those who disagree with them. Especially in the 60s/70s hippie era, "fascist" was an epiphet tossed around by liberals to refer to any conservatives.

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1326917641' post='2371084']
Does Fascism equal Traditionalism? It can be argued that the Nazi's were very non-traditional. The same goes for the other way around, ie. Tradionalism = Fascism.


They are two very different things.






Seem pretty different to me.


But it also seems that it could be possible for one to lead to the other.


Antisemitism can come from anything. I know of a few fellow Roman Catholics who are relatively anti-Semitic.
[/quote]
Technically, the Nazis (Natural Socialists) were a different movement than the Fascists, though there were similarities and Nazis and fascists were allied in WWII.

The Nazis were certainly not Catholic "traditionalists," nor were they really Christians of any kind. They rejected traditional Christianity, which they sought to replace with a Nazi church, and were opposed to the Catholic Church from the start.

Also, anti-Semites are not necessarily fascist, nor are fascists necessarily anti-semitic.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326870693' post='2370952']
I've heard of things, like Mel Gibson popping off when he was drunk or something, but I don't think any of the traditionalists who I know and have known would think of endorsing fascism or anti-semitism. As a Traditional Latin Mass lover I take offense. Maybe you could be more specific. What made you think up these questions?
[/quote]
Gibson (as is his father) is a Sede, and their views do not reflect those of most traditionalist Catholics faithful to the Church.

I think we all should be praying for Mr. Gibson, rather than using his various misdeeds as a stick to beat Traditionalists or conservatives with, as some liberals are fond of doing.

[4588686]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327023555' post='2371728']
It is no more accurate to say that Catholic traditionalism is tied to fascism and anti-semitism than to claim that liberal Catholicism is tied to Communism.
[/quote]

That's a false conflation. The question is about Traditionalism not conservative Catholicism. There is an intellectual link between fascism and the Traditional Catholicism that emerged with the counter-Enlightenment. They aren't the same thing but the link are there.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1326898163' post='2371001']
"traditionalists" does not equal radical/extreme traditionalist


I love the Latin Mass and I prefer that Mass over all others... I don't consider myself a radical traditionalist, but a Roman Catholic
[/quote]
I think it's generally the tiny minority of extremists and weirdos (many of them not in communion with the Church) who make the most noise and get the most attention, and thus give the rest of us a bad name.

[BigJon16]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327023555' post='2371728']


Technically, the Nazis (Natural Socialists) were a different movement than the Fascists, though there were similarities and Nazis and fascists were allied in WWII.

The Nazis were certainly not Catholic "traditionalists," nor were they really Christians of any kind. They rejected traditional Christianity, which they sought to replace with a Nazi church, and were opposed to the Catholic Church from the start.
[/quote]

I agree.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1327023555' post='2371728']
Also, anti-Semites are not necessarily fascist, nor are fascists necessarily anti-semitic.



[/quote]

I never said that anti-Semites are necessarily fascist. I agree with you.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1326932416' post='2371192']
I used Anne Carrol's traditionalist text book for history. She is in love with facism. I would say there is a connection.
[/quote]
[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1326943300' post='2371258']
Re: "Christ the King, Lord of History, by Anne Carrol.

It actually almost made me feel embarassed to be Catholic - and I was reading it while dressed in a habit!

Not a fan.
[/quote]
I've known the late Dr. Warren Carroll (founder of Christendom College) and his wife Anne (president of Seton High School) most of my life, and I own [i]Christ the King, Lord of History[/i], as well as most of Dr. Carroll's history books (which are all excellent, btw). I studied history under Dr. Carroll in one of the last classes to graduate before Dr. Carroll started having his health problems, and have a tremendous amount of respect for the man.

I feel completely confident in saying that the Carrolls have done more for the good of the Church than anyone posting on Phatmass, so I think this nonsense being posted is completely out of line. I can say for a fact that neither Dr. Carroll nor his wife are fascists.

The issue, I think, concerns their views of the Spanish Civil War and Franco. Franco, while "Fascist," and no saint, was Catholic, was far from a Hitler-like monster. His forces were opposing extremely evil and viciously and fanatically anti-Catholic Communist forces who wished to wipe out the Church in Spain. Carroll's sympathies were not primary fascist, but with the Carlists who wanted to restore the rule of the Spanish monarchy. Good knowledge of facts of the Spanish Civil War, and the vicious and ruthless anti-Catholicism of the Spanish Communists is necessary before bashing Dr. or Mrs. Carroll over their views. If you're interested in learning about Dr. Carroll's views on the Spanish Civil War in more depth, I'd recommend reading his book [i][url="http://www.amazon.com/Last-Crusade-Warren-H-Carroll/dp/0931888670/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327024488&sr=1-1"]The Last Crusade[/url], [/i]as well as his excellent [url="http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Communist-Revolution/dp/093188859X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327025162&sr=1-1"][i]The Rise and Fall of the Communist Revolution[/i][/url].

The claim that Warren or Anne Carroll is "madly in love with fascism" is complete nonsense, as the Carroll's do not endorse fascism as any kind of political ideal, and their writings (including [i]Christ the King[/i]) are strongly opposed to Mussolini and the Italian Fascists, as well as strongly anti-Nazi.

They are certainly not anti-semitic, as Dr. Carroll strongly denounces anti-Semitism as coming from Satan.

(And, incidentally, the Carroll's are not trads, so their views are irrelevant to discussing those of traditionalism.)

While [i]Christ the King[/i] can be a bit simplistic, and "dumbed down" from the works of Dr. Carroll, that's because it's written for junior high and high school students. While you may not agree with everything in it it, it's definitely a hundred times better than most of the politically-correct garbage that are high-school history textbooks today. I'd recommend reading Dr. Carroll's books if you're interested in learning about his views in more detail.

The works of the Carrolls certainly do not make me ashamed to be a Catholic, but proud, and the trashing of Mrs. Carroll going on here is ignorant and shameful.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Socrates