Traditionalism & Fascism

[mortify]

Hi guys,

I've dabbled in Traditionalism and one of the most disturbing aspects I have found, is the underlying fascism and anti-semitism. I'm just wondering if any of you have also experienced the same? (Groups such as the SSPX and those exclusively for the Indult fall under "traditionalism")


[img]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/10/20/1319071041718/Richard-Williamson-007.jpg[/img]

[Laudate_Dominum]

I've heard of things, like Mel Gibson popping off when he was drunk or something, but I don't think any of the traditionalists who I know and have known would think of endorsing fascism or anti-semitism. As a Traditional Latin Mass lover I take offense. Maybe you could be more specific. What made you think up these questions?

[Kia ora]

There's a traditionalist forum called the Fish Eaters. The anti-Semitic sentiment there is pretty revolting.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1326885030' post='2370969']
There's a traditionalist forum called the Fish Eaters. The anti-Semitic sentiment there is pretty revolting.
[/quote]
Really? Is anti-Semitism an SSPX thing, or what?

[Amppax]

I know there is a prominant SSPX priest (bishop? I'm blanking on his name) that has been criticized for holding some Anti-Semitic views, and also, there's Mel Gibson. I've also heard of groups being associated with fascism. But I think it is a pretty big statement to equate traditionalists in general with those positions, I would argue it is influenced more by the specific group or leader.

[beatitude]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326887582' post='2370972']
Really? Is anti-Semitism an SSPX thing, or what?
[/quote]

I noticed this. It's one of the reasons why I didn't register there. I love the traditional Latin liturgy, I strive to be faithful to the Magisterium in all respects, I enjoy our faith in all its fullness, and I suppose you could say I'm traditionalist because of that. But if 'traditionalist' means 'incorporating populist medieval views against Jews into your worldview' then I'm out.

[Papist]

Mel Gibson is a sedevacantist, I believe. That is not synonymous with a traditionalist.

Also, I see the liberalists as fascist. e.g the women's priest group.

[dominicansoul]

"traditionalists" does not equal radical/extreme traditionalist


I love the Latin Mass and I prefer that Mass over all others... I don't consider myself a radical traditionalist, but a Roman Catholic

[PhuturePriest]

I would say there is no connection. There are a few groups of Priests that do the Latin Mass only, and they are in full communion with Rome, such as the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter and the ICKSP, and they are definitely not anti-Semitic or fascist. I've been a Traditionalist myself for a very long time (Although I still attend the OF) and I have nothing but love for the Jews. And when comes to fascism, I'm about Conservative as you can possibly be.

Edited January 18, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[Winchester]

Traditionalists believe the government should control private businesses, and that there should be a strong nationalism?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1326895604' post='2370987']
I know there is a prominant SSPX priest (bishop? I'm blanking on his name) that has been criticized for holding some Anti-Semitic views, and also, there's Mel Gibson. I've also heard of groups being associated with fascism. But I think it is a pretty big statement to equate traditionalists in general with those positions, I would argue it is influenced more by the specific group or leader.
[/quote]
Williamson.

[Basilisa Marie]

I find that using these kinds of labels to describe people with different preferences in Catholicism to be pretty unhelpful. There is plenty of room for those who love Latin and for those who love more "modern" liturgical expressions, as long as neither end of the spectrum does things that are theologically sketchy. Most vocal people on Phatmass seem to be on the traditional end of the spectrum, but really everything is relative. I'm sure there are some people who think I'm definitely a liberal, but I submit to everything the Church teaches and consider myself a moderate. But then, the more traditional people on here probably consider themselves a moderate. It's not really fair to characterize people who like more traditional liturgies and spiritualities as anti-semitic or whatever just because some fringe extremists are, just as it's not fair to characterize people who like some hymns written after the 19th century as evil liberals who want to take down the ecclesiastical hierarchy.

TL;DR: Why can't we all just be Catholic and friends?

[Amppax]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1326913438' post='2371067']
Williamson.
[/quote]

Thanks, Wikipedia's blacked out today, its been killing me.

[BigJon16]

Does Fascism equal Traditionalism? It can be argued that the Nazi's were very non-traditional. The same goes for the other way around, ie. Tradionalism = Fascism.


They are two very different things.

[quote]

[b] Definition of [i]TRADITIONALISM[/i][/b]


1
[b]:[/b] adherence to the doctrines or practices of a [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tradition"]tradition[/url]

2
[b]:[/b] the beliefs of those opposed to modernism, liberalism, or radicalism

[/quote]

[quote]
[b] Definition of [i]FASCISM[/i][/b]


1
[i]often capitalized[/i] [b]:[/b] a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autocratic"]autocratic[/url] government headed by a [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictatorial"]dictatorial[/url] leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2
[b]:[/b] a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army [i]fascism[/i] and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>

[/quote]


Seem pretty different to me.


But it also seems that it could be possible for one to lead to the other.


Antisemitism can come from anything. I know of a few fellow Roman Catholics who are relatively anti-Semitic.

[Aloysius]

I think the type of fascism that gets entangled into traditionalism is not so much Hitler, but Franco. Personally, I don't see Franco as being all that bad, and I think he was better than the alternative in the Spanish civil war (the other side brutally murdered priests and religious), but ultimately Catholic principles support subsidiarity and decentralization of power so I don't think people should really hold up Franco as an ideal. but yeah, there's a sort of pro-Franco mentality among traditionalists, for which I think there's a decent debate to be had and we can't just lump Franco in with Hitler et al. IMO, and going back to certain condemnations of separation of Church and state (as in the Syllabus of Errors) many traditionalists tend to support the idea of Catholic confessional states and such.

While there does arise some anti-semitism among some fringe of traditionalists (who will be disproportionately represented among online communities of them I think), I don't see that at all among traditionalists that I know IRL. Also, I think there is a murky water out there as to what exactly is anti-semitic and what is not necessarily, that many online extreme traditionalists will fall into... a sort of gray area. Opposing Zionism and the existence of the nation-state of Israel, for instance, is not necessarily anti-semitic, that's just a political opinion wherein one believes that instead of massive migration setting up a nation-state in that land, the palestinian arab people should've been given it as their nation as happened in the rest of the divied-up British controlled Ottomon Empire. but then people that hold that opinion can very often extrapolate into some anti-semitic overtones and really cross the line very easily, so it's hard to see where the line is sometimes. but again, I think it's a fringe among traditionalists that could be seen as anti-semitic, and that fringe I think is disproportionately represented online.