dUSt Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326736216' post='2370015'] What are you trying to say? How do you think that relates to the issues of blind obedience and authoritarianism in general? [/quote] You keep saying "blind obedience". Voris is not blind. To make the "blind obedience" argument when we are talking about a man who is clearly very knowledgeable on church matters is not helping keep this debate in the realm of rationality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1326736393' post='2370016'] You could have just said "dude you quoted the wrong part of the catechism. Here is the part you were looking for." But whatever floats your boat LD. Your soapbox is a little high today. You know full well that while I might have pulled the wrong quote by accident, we are called to obey our bishops. [/quote] I mainly just meant the paragraphs that directly follow the one you quoted which clarify the scope a bit. But that's razzle dazzle. Eat tacos. Wait, soapbox envy? :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326736216' post='2370015'] What are you trying to say? How do you think that relates to the issues of blind obedience and authoritarianism in general? [/quote] I don't get your jump to blind obedience and authoritarianism here. Please explain how if Voris obeys his bishop it is blind obedience and authoritarianism? Also, please define what you call blind obedience and authoritarianism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1326736661' post='2370021'] You keep saying "blind obedience". Voris is not blind. To make the "blind obedience" argument when we are talking about a man who is clearly very knowledgeable on church matters is not helping keep this debate in the realm of rationality. [/quote] The blind obedience topic, as far as I'm concerned, is a tangent and you are wrong to construe some kind of defense of Voris. I've clarified this several times already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326736909' post='2370023'] I don't get your jump to blind obedience and authoritarianism here. Please explain how if Voris obeys his bishop it is blind obedience and authoritarianism? Also, please define what you call blind obedience and authoritarianism. [/quote] If you go back and read previous posts, the explanation to your first question is there as is my stance on the Voris thing. And again, if you want to get into what I mean on authoritarianism and all that let's make a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326737184' post='2370027'] If you go back and read previous posts, the explanation to your first question is there as is my stance on the Voris thing. And again, if you want to get into what I mean on authoritarianism and all that let's make a new thread. [/quote] It is probably b/c I am just a dumb southern hick, but I failed to identify your post that you explained how Voris obeying his bishop is blind obedience and authoritarianism. Could you please explain in simple terms for me? Also, I can't find that new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326737810' post='2370031'] It is probably b/c I am just a dumb southern hick, but I failed to identify your post that you explained how Voris obeying his bishop is blind obedience and authoritarianism. Could you please explain in simple terms for me?[/quote] Okay, I'll try to lay it out but then I'm done going over this. How the general topic of authoritarianism came up (from my pov). 1. Domsoul: "i guess my point was, whether you are liberal or radical trad or a balanced Catholic with no leanings to the left or right, disobedience is disobedience... and no one really has an advantage when it comes to sin, do they?" Me: "Disobedience can be a virtue and a solemn duty. Tyranny is possible because of people who blindly submit to authority." My comment in no ways addresses some specific act of disobedience such as the alleged sin of Voris. It is a very general statement and I think pretty common-sensical. Disobedience is not always a sin. That's the gist of what I was saying. This was clarified multiple times: "I don't claim to know jack about the Voris situation. The fact that I'm against blind obedience to authority...is just opinion sharing time [i.e., diff topic] - not an argument for or against Voris." "My view is that blind submission to authority is dubious. I hardly consider this to be a controversial claim. This simple fact doesn't mean that women priest activists are correct or that Voris is correct; it means that I reject the apparent premises of post number 108." "And again, dear reader, please do not construe a defense of whatever Voris is up to. This is officially a tangent." "The blind obedience topic, as far as I'm concerned, is a tangent and you are wrong to construe some kind of defense of Voris." I hope this clears up the confusion. [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326737810' post='2370031']Also, I can't find that new thread.[/quote] It has not been created. I am willing but not eager to debate/discuss the topic and it seems like there may be some interest but I'd like to confirm that. Edited January 16, 2012 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326739085' post='2370034'] Okay, I'll try to lay it out but then I'm done going over this. How the general topic of authoritarianism came up (from my pov). 1. Domsoul: "i guess my point was, whether you are liberal or radical trad or a balanced Catholic with no leanings to the left or right, disobedience is disobedience... and no one really has an advantage when it comes to sin, do they?" Me: "Disobedience can be a virtue and a solemn duty. Tyranny is possible because of people who blindly submit to authority." My comment in no ways addresses some specific act of disobedience such as the alleged sin of Voris. It is a very general statement and I think pretty common-sensical. Disobedience is not always a sin. That's the gist of what I was saying. This was clarified multiple times: "I don't claim to know jack about the Voris situation. The fact that I'm against blind obedience to authority...is just opinion sharing time [i.e., diff topic] - not an argument for or against Voris." "My view is that blind submission to authority is dubious. I hardly consider this to be a controversial claim. This simple fact doesn't mean that women priest activists are correct or that Voris is correct; it means that I reject the apparent premises of post number 108." "And again, dear reader, please do not construe a defense of whatever Voris is up to. This is officially a tangent." "The blind obedience topic, as far as I'm concerned, is a tangent and you are wrong to construe some kind of defense of Voris." I hope this clears up the confusion. It has not been created. I am willing but not eager to debate/discuss the topic and it seems like there may be some interest but I'd like to confirm that. [/quote] The subject of this thread with your posts one naturally concludes you support Voris not obeying his bishop, and it would be blind obedience if he did, especially when you start out calling the bishop a scummy bully. Also, no one will argue that blind obedience, in and of itself, is prudent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326740105' post='2370043'] The subject of this thread with your posts one naturally concludes you support Voris not obeying his bishop, and it would be blind obedience if he did, especially when you start out calling the bishop a scummy bully. [/quote] Which is why I made the distinction over and over again. And no, I didn't call the bishop a scummy bully. I will call you obtuse in a minute if you don't knock it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326740309' post='2370045'] Which is why I made the distinction over and over again. And no, I didn't call the bishop a scummy bully. I will call you obtuse in a minute if you don't knock it off. [/quote] Wow. B/c I don't acquiesce to your logic, I lack intellect. That's brilliant. [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326333577' post='2367296'] How has the guy been disobedient to the Church exactly? I don't think obedience (whatever that means) requires one to acquiesce to scummy bullying. [/quote] I guess I misunderstood you. I apologize. Please forgive me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326741745' post='2370057'] Wow. B/c I don't acquiesce to your logic, I lack intellect. That's brilliant.[/quote] I sure hope you're just trolling. [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326741745' post='2370057']I guess I misunderstood you. I apologize. Please forgive me.[/quote] Apology accepted. I realize that conversations on internet forums can be a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1326742195' post='2370061'] I sure hope you're just trolling. Apology accepted. I realize that conversations on internet forums can be a challenge. [/quote] And I have realized humility on internet forums are extremely rare. Thanks for your charity. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1326742988' post='2370069'] And I have realized humility on internet forums are extremely rare. Thanks for your charity. God bless you. [/quote] Thanks man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1326735675' post='2370010'] It's Voris's bishop [/quote] But they wanted RCTV to change their name, not St. Michael's Media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 just to clarify, I never mentioned "blind obedience" in my post at all I did mention [b]disobedience[/b], which is the common denominator between dissenting liberals and dissenting rad trads who seemingly think they know better than anyone and are above and beyond the authority of the Church. In most cases, I would have to say, their disobedience does not spring from a sense of loyalty to the Truth, but rather ego and pride... These groups are dangerous to the faithful and cause confusion... and who is the father of confusion??? That is why I am grateful to our Bishops when they take stands against groups that are seemingly Catholic, but in reality, propagate their own agenda... I'm not saying anything in regards to Voris, i know nothing much about him or his organization. But his response leaves much to be desired... and it gives me reason to believe the Bishop is doing the right thing... I think one can judge a man's character by the way he responds to persecution...many good people in the history of the Church have been persecuted by their Bishops or superiors, yet never made a fuss about it. (Padre Pio comes to mind, St. Damien of Molokai is another.) They didn't whine nor attack the hierarchy nor made statements that they were "more knowledgeable than the Vatican..." ...there is a virtue called [i]humility-[/i]--its a shame not many possess it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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