Ron Paul As A Venn Diagram

[MithLuin]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1325977220' post='2364627']
But when in recent years have Americans ever been concerned with anything farther then our borders? Besides it dealing with us directly?
[/quote]

Oh, I completely agree. That's the main reason politicians can ignore foreign policy, because no one really cares enough to vote based on it (well, except me, I guess), and the people who do care are going to be critical anyway, so.....why bother trying to make them happy? [With the exception of wars which send our troops to other countries - that does tend to get people's attention.]

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1325976891' post='2364625']
What exactly do you have against his foreign policy? What's the problem with not interfering with the sovereignty of other nations?
[/quote]

Not meddling is one thing; isolationism and shutting the entire world out is a very unChristian response, and I just cannot support his extreme views. I have to imagine that the people who are willing to vote for him imagine such extreme ideas will be mitigated by the reality of working with Congress, etc. I am not saying that no one may (in good conscience) vote for the man, nor am I saying that he would necessarily be worse than other American presidents, since we've had notoriously bad foreign policy throughout our [i]entire[/i] history as a nation. I just stated that I, personally, would find it very difficult to cast my vote for him based on his foreign policy ideas.

If I vote in the 2012 election at all, however, it will be by absentee ballot from Ethiopia, so I am under no illusion that my vote will be tallied, anyway.

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1326007970' post='2364909']
Before America can even begin to think of solving the wider world's problems, it needs to sort out it's own house. That is what Ron Paul wants. America sorted out. As an American who cringes at what our great society has become, I can't help but agree with this sentiment.
[/quote]

Sorting out our problems does [i]not[/i] mean clean up our house first and ignore the rest of the world while we do so. That's a very myopic and arrogant view...or at least, that's how it looks to me.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1326007970' post='2364909']
cmariadiaz, you didn't really deny the fact that the jobs that immigrants take are jobs that the jobless lower class of citizens would have if not for immigration. [/quote]

Actually I really disagree ... I think immigrants tend to take jobs that most do not choose to take.

With this I have decided to gracefully bow out before I begin to be uncharitable. Besides ... this is open mic, not debate table. God bless!

MithLuin your comments were spot on! Thanks

Edited January 9, 2012 by cmariadiaz

[BigJon16]

Annnnnnd I dont even know what half of those word mean. Yay for not caring!!

[she_who_is_not]

I thought the title said Ron Paul is a Vegan Dragon. This was not the fun I expected.

[Aloysius]

Ron Paul is not an isolationist, he's a non-interventionist. The very precise definition of which is that he would not intervene in other nations' internal conflicts with our military. That's not unChristian, that's saying we only go to war when it is defensive, which is actually the only Christian way to go to war in the first place.

he believes in trading with the rest of the world, talking with the rest of the world, keeping relations up with the rest of the world (so long as they don't involve the kinds of disastrous alliances that require us to go to war, entangling alliances were the cause of the most destructive wars in world history, btw)

it's unbelievable how one can claim that an anti-war foreign policy is unChristian.

perhaps you mean his opposition to foregin aid? in that case I suggest that getting our own house in order is actually a good thing, because more often than not foreign aid means taking money from middle class or poor people in our country and giving it to rich people in other countries. the level of corruption at the receiving end of our foreign aid is unbelievable. we should work for effective charitable organizations to assist people around the world rather than continue with the corrupt system of foreign aid that is very ineffective at helping the poor and suffering of the world.

[brianthephysicist]

I love venn diagrams! Especially complicated ones with more than 3 circles

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1326115466' post='2365623']
Ron Paul is not an isolationist, he's a non-interventionist. The very precise definition of which is that he would not intervene in other nations' internal conflicts with our military. That's not unChristian, that's saying we only go to war when it is defensive, which is actually the only Christian way to go to war in the first place.

he believes in trading with the rest of the world, talking with the rest of the world, keeping relations up with the rest of the world (so long as they don't involve the kinds of disastrous alliances that require us to go to war, entangling alliances were the cause of the most destructive wars in world history, btw)

it's unbelievable how one can claim that an anti-war foreign policy is unChristian.

perhaps you mean his opposition to foregin aid? in that case I suggest that getting our own house in order is actually a good thing, because more often than not foreign aid means taking money from middle class or poor people in our country and giving it to rich people in other countries. the level of corruption at the receiving end of our foreign aid is unbelievable. we should work for effective charitable organizations to assist people around the world rather than continue with the corrupt system of foreign aid that is very ineffective at helping the poor and suffering of the world.
[/quote]

Of course I was talking about foreign aid, not war. As I said, his foreign policy stances go beyond non-intervention....to isolation. I am well aware of the corruption levels of many foreign gov'ts, and certainly more could be done to avoid 'wasting' aid. I am not opposed to reforms or restructuring - I am opposed to the idea that abolishing our aid is any way acceptable. The US has a GDP of ~$15trillion/year. This is 3x as much as the next largest economy (China), and many times more than all the other countries. We are obligated to help, and failure to do so would be exceedingly callous (Hence my charge of unChristian). Charitable organizations? Who do you think gives them the grants to do their work? I would be extremely surprised if an organization such as Catholic Relief Services or Salesian Missions would be at all supportive of Ron Paul's foreign policy ideas.

Foreign aid is taken from federal income taxes - not state, sales or property taxes. I do not see how that is an undue burden on the poor of this country.

[Aloysius]

middle class people are taxed by the income tax. poor people are covertly taxed by federal reserve printing of money. of course, rich people are taxed too. and then all of that wealth taken by the government goes in foreign aid which largely ends up in the hands of the rich people of other countries. very often it continues to solidify the power of corrupt and despotic regimes and therefore make the situation worse, not better.

and so much of our foreign aid isn't exactly charitable. foreign aid to Israel is military aid, for instance.

honestly, when it comes down to it while I do support Ron Paul greatly, I want to see him get into the presidency and succeed in many things, but I do actually expect and want him to fail to do some things he says. It's about getting that radical direction change. when it comes to foreign aid that is actually effective in helping people out around the world, I'm not exactly enthusiastic about him succeeding in cutting that. but I think even if that stuff were cut private charities are still capable of doing a lot of good around the world--they don't need grants, they need voluntary contributions.

and ultimately we have to also look at how US foreign aid and international monetary policy has actually effectively created dependency in the third world, the kind of dependency that keeps them down while keeping us propped up.

there are so many problems with our foreign aid that it needs a radical re-imagining. people around the world need to be given the capability to stand up on their own rather than perpetuating an economic system that keeps them down and dependent upon us, and we certainly need to stop letting foreign aid prop up corrupt systems that do way more harm than good.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Aloysius

[Aloysius]

and again, the term "isolationist" includes isolationist trade policies, Ron Paul is not an isolationist he is a non-interventionist. he supports trade and diplomacy as a means of being involved in the world.

[MithLuin]

'Fix our own house first' is an isolationist and non-Christian view of the world.

As you say, though, the chances of him being able to make good on so many different radical ideas is slim. Congress has to at least somewhat support changes in policy.

I hate politics, and find it very difficult not to hate all politicians along with that. I don't see elections as leading to the solution of any problems, though I do appreciate nonviolent transitions of power and the high turn-over rate of presidents .

[arfink]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1326135951' post='2365726']
'Fix our own house first' is an isolationist and non-Christian view of the world.
[/quote]

How is that again? Then again, when I hear "Fix our own house first" I am usually instead thinking "Our house is at this very moment burning to the ground, so let's put out the fire before we go and re-paint the neighbor's shutters."

As for him being unable to make good on his radical ideas- I'd rather have a leader who actually believes in and acts on his own ideas even if everyone else in power will not support him. Otherwise the hegemony of lunacy will just continue.

[GeorgiiMichael]

How foreign aid is handled right now is just a new kind of imperialism. By other countries relying on the United States for aid, we've successfully brought them to their knees and we can make them do anything or we will withhold aid. Doesn't sound very Christian to me. And that is exactly what happens. If a country does something we don't like, we withhold aid until they change. And even then, all of our aid gets intercepted by warlords and despotic governments and goes directly to the black market, furthering the problems our aid was going to help. That, or our aid goes to the military of places like Israel, a country who's government mandated racism is despicable and leads to the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians every year. Innocents killed with bombs that our "aid" paid for.

American foreign aid doesn't help other nations, it hurts them. So tell me again how it's unChristian to pull that "aid"?

[arfink]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1326135951' post='2365726']
I hate politics, and find it very difficult not to hate all politicians along with that. I don't see elections as leading to the solution of any problems, though I do appreciate nonviolent transitions of power and the high turn-over rate of presidents .
[/quote]

The way you fix a whole system like ours is to continuously elect upright men who will actively oppose the other sources of power, the ones we can't yet change, in the country. American politics is supposed to make it so that the only action a government can take is with the full cooperation of all branches. It's SUPPOSED to be hard, because with so many different elected representatives it is thought that the will of the people will be more uniformly known and acted upon.

Many people chose not to vote or simply pick a party-sponsored individual, instead of picking an individual who will actually represent them instead of representing the party. I for one will be picking the man who represents *my own* interests as completely as possible. I refuse to compromise and allow the party to pick out the views they want upheld for the sake of compromise. I distrust both the DFL and the GOP, since neither party actually has my interests in mind, but instead has their own interests in mind. I don't care if a few of their interests line up with mine, because it's not about having my leaders compromise and ultimately do what they want to do, but about whether the people themselves will compromise and then direct their leaders to do likewise.

EDIT: and FYI, I will take absolutely no compromises on issues like abortion and homosexual marriage. The Culture of Death cannot be fought at the blackjack table; they have all the cards right now and will win if we continue to play by their rules. Take it outside with a pair of pistols, walk 10 paces, and finish the job. AKA, elect hardliners even if you know they'll have to fight, because that's what we need to have.

Edited January 9, 2012 by arfink