Please Be Careful

[Chiquitunga]

Hello! Just moving a conversation to here from a thread in VS which I do not want to debate in (and thus result in the closing of a great thread!) and to follow the rules on not discussing non-approved communities there :like:

 

 

 

Just to warn you, the Carmelites in Colorado Springs, CO are not in union with the Church.  They are a "renegade order" and are attached to a male group that is schismatic.  They don't believe in the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh so that's why they were so concerned about me and my interest in the Latin Mass. Never mind then. I haven't actually visited them or anything. I just wish there were more Orders out there that had the Latin Mass

 

 

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/123687-which-communities-celebrate-the-ef-at-all/  &  http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/126309-cloisters-in-the-latin-rite-in-union-with-rome/

 

There are three Carmels now with the Latin Mass (EF) daily (although I've heard the CA foundation has the OF most of the time for the time being in their new location)

 

Valparaiso, NE

 

Elysburg, PA

 

Canyon, CA

 

Carmel of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph of Canyon, CA
P.O. Box 183
Canyon‎ CA‎ 94516

 

One of the Institute of Christ the King priests in Oakland came for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdj1120YFk0

 

 

 

Wait, wow, they really don't? (believe the ordinary/new Mass is valid) Just wondering, did they tell you this? But yes, I have a document from the CO Springs Diocese on them and the Servants of the Holy Family (the priests they are attached to) and yes they are not in union with the Church. The document also says that while their Masses offered are valid, though illicit, their Confessions are not (valid)

 

 

 

Yes, the Prioress told me herself they do not believe the NO Mass is valid.  They asked me bluntly if I attended only the 1962 Extraordinary Form Mass.  When I told them I never attended the Latin Mass, she was very harsh and said the NO Mass is not valid.

 

 

 

 

Whoa, that's scary... Thanks for letting us know. I was wondering this especially in relation to how they would view other Carmels then, like their neighbors in Littleton, CO who are 1990 and sometimes have the Traditional Latin Mass offered by the FSSP. How could so many cloistered nuns persevere in the life without a valid Mass? What about their relationship with Our Lord? ... (I mean, I wonder how they, CO Springs, could think this) We must pray for them. Even the SSPX acknowledges the validity of the new Mass (although they doubt the majority are valid because of the intention of the priest, as they say on their site, also sad, but slightly less extreme)

 

I receive the Sisters of Carmel email newsletter, as it is interesting to read about some different Carmelite customs they mention. They once wrote about the entrance of a new postulant and that they sing an English hymn to Our Lady, O Shelter Her when she enters. I heard from Dallas that they sing this too. CO Springs traces its roots to the Albuquerque Carmel (which closed and merged with Pewaukee, WI) Alb. was founded by Santa Fe which was founded by Dallas, so they would have similar customs.

 

Again, let's pray for them....  :pray:

 

 

 

 

I always thought it was strange that they don't mention the diocese they are in, the local Bishop, or the Pope on their website.  When I found out they were renegade, it all made sense.  I really hope they understand the error of their ways and reunite with Holy Mother Church.

 

 

 

 

I heard from someone who knows them that they had been very influenced by Fr. Anthony Ward in the 80's who founded the Servants of the Holy Family. How important it is that we have good priests to shepherd us in the right direction  :pray:

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I suppose I should comment on this since I do know these sisters, personally and I know their situation, and by that I don't mean by merely what I have read on the internet. I know for a fact that the priests who minister to them...the priests at Servants of the Holy Family are in fact in union with Rome, regularly have Apostolic visitors, and do, yes, do have faculties (and that includes for hearing Confessions)....faculties given from the local bishop even. Bishop Sheridan even when personally speaking to my brother told him that he had given them faculties when my brother asked him. So, it is very strange to me that this faulse information continues to be circulating around the internet. If you do not want to have anything to do with them because they question the Novis Ordo, then that is one thing, but please stop passing on this faulse information of not being in Union with Rome because it is faulse.

 

 

 

I think the best thing to do in this situation is to contact Bishop Sheridan directly and ask him what the current position is regarding these two communities and the faculties the Servants of the Holy Family do or do not have from him. But currently I have a letter from the Diocese (from 2004, so perhaps someone needs to contact them again) that states clearly that they (the Servants of the Holy Family) do not have them (faculties) and are not in good standing in the Diocese.

 

A religious community cannot be in union with Rome if it is not in good standing with the local Diocese. I will see about getting the letter and posting it here, and in the meantime checking with the Diocese again on the current position. A community can say they are in union with Rome very easily, but it's what Rome and the local Bishop says that determines this, not the other way around.  

 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

A few years ago I got caught up in some of the New Age stuff, such as crystals and ended up going to fortune tellers with friends etc. What I found was, while it didn't appear to affect me spiritually it increased the general sense of dissatisfaction I felt with my life. Also, if nothing else I think (only my humble opinion) that I was trying to change things that should be left to God and it shows a great mistrust in Him.

About yoga, I genuinely don't know. I tried it once from a DVD and didn't like it but mainly because I don't like stretching exercises and such.

It seems that you might understand these things the way I used to.  I used to believe that Psychics and other acts of "divination" would open portals for satan to enter enter my life (some priests misled me into believing some crazy stuff). I can assure you, the dissatisfaction was not caused by demons entering your life, if that's what you're concerned about. Psychics aren't real. There's a technique called "cold reading" that psychics use to trick people. I think the old way of viewing psychics and new-age nonsense was due to a lack of understanding behind them. Psychics should be avoided because they're cheats and jerks, not because they possess some magical powers from satan. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

A few years ago I got caught up in some of the New Age stuff, such as crystals and ended up going to fortune tellers with friends etc. What I found was, while it didn't appear to affect me spiritually it increased the general sense of dissatisfaction I felt with my life. Also, if nothing else I think (only my humble opinion) that I was trying to change things that should be left to God and it shows a great mistrust in Him.

About yoga, I genuinely don't know. I tried it once from a DVD and didn't like it but mainly because I don't like stretching exercises and such.

It seems that you might understand these things the way I used to.  I used to believe that Psychics and other acts of "divination" would open portals for satan to enter enter my life (some priests misled me into believing some crazy stuff). I can assure you, the dissatisfaction was not caused by demons entering your life, if that's what you're concerned about. Psychics aren't real. There's a technique called "cold reading" that psychics use to trick people. I think the old way of viewing psychics and new-age nonsense was due to a lack of understanding behind them. Psychics should be avoided because they're cheats and jerks, not because they possess some magical powers from satan. 

[Chiquitunga]

It seems that you might understand these things the way I used to.  I used to believe that Psychics and other acts of "divination" would open portals for satan to enter enter my life (some priests misled me into believing some crazy stuff). I can assure you, the dissatisfaction was not caused by demons entering your life, if that's what you're concerned about. Psychics aren't real. There's a technique called "cold reading" that psychics use to trick people. I think the old way of viewing psychics and new-age nonsense was due to a lack of understanding behind them. Psychics should be avoided because they're cheats and jerks, not because they possess some magical powers from satan. 

 

Completely incorrect regarding such things not being open portals to Satan. I do not have the time or energy to find all the resources for you here. But I know this first hand from friends who have been involved in such things (not me) and actually had to go an exorcist. Have you ever talked first hand to an exorcist about this? This is a huge part of what they do to help someone be delivered - discern where the open doors were. One became possessed by playing with crystals. It was discerned by the exorcist priest (appointed officially the bishop) that this was directly what caused it. This person was truly possessed and the demon/s were shouting/speaking (doing all kinds of crazy things, etc) through him/her. After some time and much effort and many visits to the local exorcist her/she was delivered.

 

Edited April 20, 2013 by Chiquitunga

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Completely incorrect regarding such things not being open portals to Satan. I do not have the time or energy to find all the resources for you here. But I know this first hand from friends who have been involved in such things (not me) and actually had to go an exorcist. Have you ever talked first hand to an exorcist about this? This is a huge part of what they do to help someone be delivered - discern where the open doors were. One became possessed by playing with crystals. It was discerned by the exorcist priest (appointed officially the bishop) that this was directly what caused it. This person was truly possessed and the demon/s were shouting/speaking (doing all kinds of crazy things, etc) through him/her. After some time and much effort and many visits to the local exorcist her/she was delivered.

This is fascinating. I am open to being proven wrong. There mental disorders and ailments particular to certain cultures, such "susto" in Latin American countries and Zār possession among females in the Ethiopian community in Israel (this phenomenon is also found in parts of Iran and Egypt as well). These ailments are best cured through non-traditional treatments, such as through the consultation of medicine men and spiritual leaders. For this reason, I am a strong believer that many of these sicknesses originate from a belief in them. I am not saying possession does not exist, but I do think that this phenomenon is much more rare than we are led to believe. Psychics are for sure not real. There has been no example of a psychic that has done anything that I could not reproduce after a few months of practice. In fact, there is a million dollar prize for any psychic able to do so, and none have even come close. Also, epilepsy is commonly mistaken as demonic possession. We cannot rule out that this was not the case. Correlation does not equal causation. It's possible that the priests were finding a reason for a demon to enter into this woman. In most cases this does not happen. However, like I said, I could be completely wrong. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/crystal-healing-magic-cures-or-just-rocks/

I don't know if these are the crystals you are referring to. Anyways, the reason why I am adamant about debunking the claim that such scams open up portals to demons is because it creates an unnecessary level of fear. It is human nature to believe that someone who specializes in one field is also well versed in an unrelated field. I believe exorcists are like normal people. They are also wrong sometimes. They might not always understand the mental disorders that can be confused with demonic possession. Take the case of the nun diagnosed with schizophrenia who died because of an attempted exorcism. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107524.stm

Also, many charlatans can appear to be doing miracles by evoking spirits. We give jerks a great amount of power when we do this. Even exorcists can be fooled by these men. We are all human, after all. 

 

[OnlySunshine]

 

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/crystal-healing-magic-cures-or-just-rocks/

I don't know if these are the crystals you are referring to. Anyways, the reason why I am adamant about debunking the claim that such scams open up portals to demons is because it creates an unnecessary level of fear. It is human nature to believe that someone who specializes in one field is also well versed in an unrelated field. I believe exorcists are like normal people. They are also wrong sometimes. They might not always understand the mental disorders that can be confused with demonic possession. Take the case of the nun diagnosed with schizophrenia who died because of an attempted exorcism. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107524.stm

Also, many charlatans can appear to be doing miracles by evoking spirits. We give jerks a great amount of power when we do this. Even exorcists can be fooled by these men. We are all human, after all. 

 

 

I hardly ever come to the Debate Table but I just needed to respond to this.  Playing with the occult is no joke and not something to be taken lightly.  Take Ouija boards for instance -- people think it is a game or that you can communicate with your loved ones.  Anytime something happens, it's usually a demonic spirit guiding the planchette -- not a loved one.  The devil has all sorts of disguises and his biggest lie is that there is no harm in crystals, magic, occultism, etc.  The risk is HUGE.  It leads us away from God and the occult becomes "god."  Why take the risk?  Possession, while rare, is incredibly frightening and is usually the result of someone getting into something they shouldn't have.

 

A priest cannot perform an impromptu exorcism.  If they recognize that someone may be possessed, they must go to their Bishop first and then the Bishop usually has to contact the Holy See if he believes the case is genuine.  The case of the person who may be possessed has to be intensely examined.  It is a grueling process.  No priest wants to tangle with satan.  Many exorcisms may have to be performed before the possessed finds any relief.  Satan is very real and grabs hold of his intended victim with a vengeance.  Downplaying the severity of possession is dangerous.  Peter says in his letters:

 

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. -- 1 Peter 5:8

 

If you dabble in the occult, you are setting yourself up for major problems.  Read the First Commandment.

 

1.     I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

 

Please read these accounts of exorcists.  They are sobering.

 

http://newssun.suntimes.com/news/3521595-418/story.html

 

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/stories/an-exorcism-story/

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700193717/Vatican-trained-exorcist-shares-true-tales-of-his-craft.html?pg=all

 

Also, there is a movie called The Exorcism of Emily Rose.  The characters, while fictionalized, are based off a true story of a German girl named Anneliese Michel.  I've listened to tape recordings of the exorcisms that were performed on her and the accounts are frightening.  The devil is real and we should always be vigilant and on guard.

Edited April 21, 2013 by MaterMisericordiae

[Chiquitunga]

Thank you Mater! I was just writing a reply here when I saw what you wrote. I appreciate someone else from the phorum chiming in, as I know I am certainly not alone in this.

 

The exorcist priest of my diocese is a totally competent and well-educated experienced man, very aware of the possibility of something being of psychological origin. I don't think there is any way I can "prove you wrong" in a conversation here on an internet forum. I appreciate that you are open to this though. You would have to know all the details of this case, the person, be present at the times he/she visited the exorcist, etc, which I would of course never write on an internet forum. All I can say to you is that this was a completely normal young person with no psychological problems before the possession and afterwards, and is living a completely normal life now in college. 

 

Yes, you are correct, possessions are rare. And there are also different degrees of possessions. Some are far worse than others and take many years to overcome. 

 

Other things I will say are that the manifestations of the demon/s speaking clearly in different languages (which the victim never studied) screaming (deafeningly loud, I am not exaggerating) happened when the Rite is used/priest is praying over the person, when the Blessed Virgin Mary is invoked and especially during the rite when its name is asked. Once it gives its name, it can be commanded to leave.

 

This is all I'm going to write here about this though. It's not good to focus on or give attention to evil. But it's important to know it exists and that these things do open the door to Satan. And by this, I am not saying psychics are true, no. I am saying the devil/demons can use this to enter a person, and they can use what they know (like with Ouija boards, etc.) to make a person think such things are "magic" or whatever they want to believe.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Chiquitunga

[Nihil Obstat]

A priest cannot perform an impromptu exorcism.  If they recognize that someone may be possessed, they must go to their Bishop first and then the Bishop usually has to contact the Holy See if he believes the case is genuine.

I just wanted to interject here. What you said is certainly correct. However, it is also true that if a priest suspects exorcism, he can on his own authority offer a couple prayers of deliverance. Ideally in Latin, and he should not make any fuss about it. This is not an exorcism, major or minor, but it is within the same realm of prayers. Also occasionally the other party's reaction to the deliverance prayer can offer the priest a clue as to what may be going on.

[OnlySunshine]

I just wanted to interject here. What you said is certainly correct. However, it is also true that if a priest suspects exorcism, he can on his own authority offer a couple prayers of deliverance. Ideally in Latin, and he should not make any fuss about it. This is not an exorcism, major or minor, but it is within the same realm of prayers. Also occasionally the other party's reaction to the deliverance prayer can offer the priest a clue as to what may be going on.

 

Yes, you are correct.  Thank you for adding this.  I was reading about this just a little while ago.  Most priests use a test because there are some people that become so enamored with possession that they actually believe they are possessed but exorcists are trained to know the signs of real possession.  They can tell when someone is not really possessed.  Another test I read about was by one of the priests who exorcised Anneliese Michel.  When he first started on her case, he brought two bottles of water -- one was regular and the other was Holy Water.  Neither was labeled.  Anneliese took the bottle of Holy Water and threw it across the room.  She was also known to destroy several rosaries which is highly rare unless the person is possessed by one of the most evil spirits.  This is a girl who used to pray several hours a day and could not pray any longer when the demons infested her.

[Nihil Obstat]

Yes, you are correct.  Thank you for adding this.  I was reading about this just a little while ago.  Most priests use a test because there are some people that become so enamored with possession that they actually believe they are possessed but exorcists are trained to know the signs of real possession.  They can tell when someone is not really possessed.  Another test I read about was by one of the priests who exorcised Anneliese Michel.  When he first started on her case, he brought two bottles of water -- one was regular and the other was Holy Water.  Neither was labeled.  Anneliese took the bottle of Holy Water and threw it across the room.  She was also known to destroy several rosaries which is highly rare unless the person is possessed by one of the most evil spirits.  This is a girl who used to pray several hours a day and could not pray any longer when the demons infested her.

That is why I mention that Latin is ideal for those little deliverance prayers. Not because Latin is best, although it is ( ;) ) but because if the other party does not understand it, and if their condition is primarily mental, they will not be able to react subconsciously in the way they thing they might be 'supposed to'.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I hardly ever come to the Debate Table but I just needed to respond to this.  Playing with the occult is no joke and not something to be taken lightly.  Take Ouija boards for instance -- people think it is a game or that you can communicate with your loved ones.  Anytime something happens, it's usually a demonic spirit guiding the planchette -- not a loved one.  The devil has all sorts of disguises and his biggest lie is that there is no harm in crystals, magic, occultism, etc.  The risk is HUGE.  It leads us away from God and the occult becomes "god."  Why take the risk?  Possession, while rare, is incredibly frightening and is usually the result of someone getting into something they shouldn't have.

I think the Ouija board is overhyped as well. The fact that Parker Brothers mass-manufactures them should raise some flags. Those who play with the Ouija board are strongly influenced by the ideomotor effect. In other words, they are subconsciously moving the planchette without realizing it. If you feel daring, buy a Ouiji board from your local walmart and blindfold a first time participant. See if they can even come up with one intelligible word. 

 

 

A priest cannot perform an impromptu exorcism.  If they recognize that someone may be possessed, they must go to their Bishop first and then the Bishop usually has to contact the Holy See if he believes the case is genuine.  The case of the person who may be possessed has to be intensely examined.  It is a grueling process.  No priest wants to tangle with satan.  Many exorcisms may have to be performed before the possessed finds any relief.  Satan is very real and grabs hold of his intended victim with a vengeance.  

 

 

I don't doubt that possession does occur and that priests can exorcize people. However, I would say that belief might play a strong role in some cases. I would argue that believing you could get possessed after consulting a soothsayer could lead to you acting/feeling possessed. It could lead to very similar symptoms that would be hard to differentiate between. It is also possible that the ordained do not always understand what specifically leads to this phenomenon. Their limited knowledge of the reality of magic tricks and psychological phenomenon could lead to them to incorrectly assess the cause of possession. 

 

 

 

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. -- 1 Peter 5:8

 

If you dabble in the occult, you are setting yourself up for major problems.  Read the First Commandment.

 

1.     I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

 

Please read these accounts of exorcists.  They are sobering.

 

http://newssun.suntimes.com/news/3521595-418/story.html

 

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/stories/an-exorcism-story/

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700193717/Vatican-trained-exorcist-shares-true-tales-of-his-craft.html?pg=all

 

Also, there is a movie called The Exorcism of Emily Rose.  The characters, while fictionalized, are based off a true story of a German girl named Anneliese Michel.  I've listened to tape recordings of the exorcisms that were performed on her and the accounts are frightening.  The devil is real and we should always be vigilant and on guard.

The Exorcism of Emily Rose is proof that the phenomenon of possession is not necessarily due to seeking out fortune tellers and playing board games. I am not saying there are not dark forces. I am merely stating that these two conditions are most likely not the cause of them. My family has consulted an exorcist who spent his whole life doing this work. There are so many possible causes for demonic possession. It is not hard to mistakenly credit an innocuous source.

Edited April 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[To Jesus Through Mary]

From religious orders not in communion with the Church to possessions and everything in between. I love these kind of threads.  

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Thank you Mater! I was just writing a reply here when I saw what you wrote. I appreciate someone else from the phorum chiming in, as I know I am certainly not alone in this.

 

The exorcist priest of my diocese is a totally competent and well-educated experienced man, very aware of the possibility of something being of psychological origin. I don't think there is any way I can "prove you wrong" in a conversation here on an internet forum. I appreciate that you are open to this though. You would have to know all the details of this case, the person, be present at the times he/she visited the exorcist, etc, which I would of course never write on an internet forum. All I can say to you is that this was a completely normal young person with no psychological problems before the possession and afterwards, and is living a completely normal life now in college. 

That is horrifying. I'm glad your friend is okay. Sorry if I came off as skeptical. I am more skeptical about the cause they mentioned than the fact that it happened, if that makes sense. I am not assuming the priests or the bishops are incompetent for attributing the cause of the possession to crystals, far from it. The smartest people can be tricked into believing all sorts of things (Newton was into Alchemy). I believe this exercise of looking at supposed "supernatural" phenomenon like seances  and psychic readings with doubt is helpful in identifying the root of these problems. 

 

This is all I'm going to write here about this though. It's not good to focus on or give attention to evil. But it's important to know it exists and that these things do open the door to Satan. And by this, I am not saying psychics are true, no. I am saying the devil/demons can use this to enter a person, and they can use what they know (like with Ouija boards, etc.) to make a person think such things are "magic" or whatever they want to believe.

This is very true. However, there is a psychological explanation for the phenomenon that happens with Ouija boards. It also explains dousing. The psychics thing is completely false. I can show you a whole host of youtube links explaining the technique of hot and cold reading and exposing these horrible frauds. 

 

Edited April 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Chiquitunga]

The Exorcism of Emily Rose is proof that the phenomenon of possession is not necessarily due to seeking out fortune tellers and playing board games. I am not saying there are not dark forces. I am merely stating that these two conditions are most likely not the cause of them. My family has consulted an exorcist who spent his whole life doing this work. There are so many possible causes for demonic possession. It is not hard to mistakenly credit an innocuous source.

 

That is completely true. There are many possible causes for a possession or the other degrees of demonic infestation/oppression, etc. We're just saying though that those things such as psychics, Ouija boards, etc. can (not always) open the door for a demon/s to enter a person. You were saying in your first post here that you don't believe that anymore, and that you felt you were misled to believe some crazy stuff by priests.

 

About your comment regarding fear before, personally none of this makes me fearful or worried at all, just aware (and gratefully aware) of the reality of it and the seriousness of avoiding such things, not only because psychics as you say are cheats and jerks. Also many of these things aren't connected to going to someone like that and being cheated anyway. They should all just be avoided altogether.