AccountDeleted Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 This was moved to Debate Table because it became a debate. But the title of the thread is Please Be Careful and that applies to discerning whether communities are faithful to Rome, whether they are faithful but practise questionable practises and whether things like yoga should be given unconditional support in a thread on the Vocation Station! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 [quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1326002794' post='2364880'] I don't think the debate was per se about the communities ... the debate came about because of the yoga references. If you read the thread I don't think anyone really started debating about the communities. This thread really should split off from the original. I know I went off topic [/quote] I know the debate was more about yoga, but still, I think that the same sort of mind-set is present when one community does Yoga (and I mean incorporating it's spiritualism) and a community which decides to be outside the Church over tradition. They both have a mindset that they know better than the Church. I meant it as more of a side commentary. (Also, please note that I do not mean to infer that the Carmel of Armstrong does yoga. I can only think of the look Mother Prioress would give me ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I used to be much more reactionary on this score but with maturity my mind has changed a good deal. I don't really know anybody who has been demonically possessed or become a Hindu or experienced a lessening of their Christianity due to yoga. After years of doing yoga people seem to mostly stay the same physically and spiritually. The pious Christians stay pious Christians, the atheists stay atheists and the fat people appear to stay fat in spite of all the hype. Maybe they just become really limber or something. People seem to get in the same rut with Harry Potter etc, really there are lots of pagan-rooted things we do and have "baptized" so to speak, if you take it too far you start getting into Jehovah's Witness territory where you can't celebrate birthdays or Christmas or so forth. My impression is there is some noise made in official quarters that yoga should be approached with caution, but certainly no statement that yoga is sinful or must not be done under any circumstances. If it doesn't help you, don't do it, and if it does help you, do it with the permission and monitoring of your spiritual director. That is what I get from it. If one is a nun and one's religious superior okays yoga, is it anyone's place to say Oh No You Can't? With regard to the Vatican exorcist Fr. Gabriel Amorth, his book has been reviewed by orthodox sources as being very bad and riddled with inconsistencies and episodes that appear to be made up. For instance at one point he says that the devil never discloses the sins of other people during exorcism, and then a few pages later provides a couple supposedly real-life examples where the devil does exactly that. In the same statement in which he said yoga was evil he said Harry Potter was the work of Satan as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1326004960' post='2364890'] I used to be much more reactionary on this score but with maturity my mind has changed a good deal. I don't really know anybody who has been demonically possessed or become a Hindu or experienced a lessening of their Christianity due to yoga. After years of doing yoga people seem to mostly stay the same physically and spiritually. The pious Christians stay pious Christians, the atheists stay atheists and the fat people appear to stay fat in spite of all the hype. Maybe they just become really limber or something. People seem to get in the same rut with Harry Potter etc, really there are lots of pagan-rooted things we do and have "baptized" so to speak, if you take it too far you start getting into Jehovah's Witness territory where you can't celebrate birthdays or Christmas or so forth. My impression is there is some noise made in official quarters that yoga should be approached with caution, but certainly no statement that yoga is sinful or must not be done under any circumstances. If it doesn't help you, don't do it, and if it does help you, do it with the permission and monitoring of your spiritual director. That is what I get from it. If one is a nun and one's religious superior okays yoga, is it anyone's place to say Oh No You Can't? With regard to the Vatican exorcist Fr. Gabriel Amorth, his book has been reviewed by orthodox sources as being very bad and riddled with inconsistencies and episodes that appear to be made up. For instance at one point he says that the devil never discloses the sins of other people during exorcism, and then a few pages later provides a couple supposedly real-life examples where the devil does exactly that. In the same statement in which he said yoga was evil he said Harry Potter was the work of Satan as well. [/quote] I couldn't agree with you more Maggie, even though it might appear that I am one of the conservatives on the issue. My main point has always been "please be careful" not "don't do it under any circumstances". I only mention Amorth in passing as an example of the confusion that can arise from these things and a suggestion that people be careful is discerning what it right for them. He isn't my ideal of common sense. As for no one ever having been converted by doing yoga, I might take exception to that. Not that yoga in itself is a religion or that it tries to convert people to Hinduism, but that often people start with one thing and then move onto others. I started from the opposite end of the scale, as an agnostic who was led into Eastern spirituality because my mother was very anti-Christian and I didn't want to upset her. After many years of searching through Eastern religions, philosophies, meditations etc (and having been a trained meditation teacher myself), I was finally led by God into the Catholic church through working with Mother Teresa's nuns. Influence can work both ways. People can be influenced away from the Church just as they can be influenced towards the faith. Someone can start off simply admiring the Dalai Lama for his compassion, then start attending his lectures and end up wanting to become a follower of us... humans can be influenced in many ways. Personally, I admire him myself, but he doesn't have the fullness of Truth and some people believe he does, this is a way that the evil one can deceive people and prevent them from coming to Christ. All I ever suggest is caution, deliberation and common sense when using anything that has a religion as its roots. Crystals can seem harmless too, and so can many 'new-Age' things - so much so that even religious communities have adapted them for use. But when one has the fullness of Truth already, what need is there for embellishment? What has been taken from yoga is a system of stretching exercises. I am not sure why we have to even use the yoga postures in order to stretch our bodies or the term yoga to describe our exercises. There are many ways to stretch without pretending to be a lion or offer homage to the sun. Why not just call it stretching and do some exercises? That is what Pilates appeared to do when he created his techniques. I do a series of stretches myself that suit my body... kind of like cats stretch and some other gentle aerobic type exercises along with walking. I know yoga, and did it for many years before I became a Catholic but I don't use any formal posture any more and don't call what I do yoga. I call it exercise and there is no controversy that way. Everyone has the right to do what they want - that's free will, but anything that causes this much controversy needs a second look and a little caution. Edited January 8, 2012 by nunsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) I think with some new age things like crystals that were mentioned (also: horoscopes, reiki, etc), they might seem harmless at first because if they affect the person negatively (in a spiritual way), that does not become manifest early on. That might take time. But we know from the Catechism such things go against the First Commandment and are also often superstitious, so the soul is still affected, whether in a visible way or not. Perhaps if the person keeps going, it would lead them further and eventually become noticeable (such as leaving the Church, or to make an extreme example, possession). Edited January 8, 2012 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strictlyinkblot Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 A few years ago I got caught up in some of the New Age stuff, such as crystals and ended up going to fortune tellers with friends etc. What I found was, while it didn't appear to affect me spiritually it increased the general sense of dissatisfaction I felt with my life. Also, if nothing else I think (only my humble opinion) that I was trying to change things that should be left to God and it shows a great mistrust in Him. About yoga, I genuinely don't know. I tried it once from a DVD and didn't like it but mainly because I don't like stretching exercises and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Why is it we never hear of any Hindu or Buddhist monks or nuns who pray the Rosary often and/or attend Eucharistic Adoration? It doesnt happen thats why! Why as Catholics, especially religious, shoudnt we be the ones showing them how to pray etc when instead we are often the ones taking from their lesser beliefs and not giving them the fullness of Truth which is Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 As Mother Angelica says " the essence of evangelization is to tell everyone Jesus loves YOU" And as Bl Elizabeth of the Trinity says "let yourself be loved more than these" the these meaning anyone else even the greatest saints. God wants to love you so much and for you to tell others about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325898228' post='2364208'] For me the warning lights were flashing when Scripture was changed to remove the unplesant bits from the Office. As well as the male bits. [/quote] I had no idea that community did that, I thought they are the Tridentine ones that aren't in line with Rome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureSister2009 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Great advice Faith. All the best to you! God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 [quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1326002794' post='2364880'] I don't think the debate was per se about the communities ... the debate came about because of the yoga references. If you read the thread I don't think anyone really started debating about the communities. This thread really should split off from the original. I know I went off topic [/quote] Sorry, when I moved it, I thought there were some posts that referred back to both topics. Looking back, I'm not sure there were, but it's all moved now, so I'm just going to leave it unless another mod wants to take the time to split it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 When I lived in a large city with a complex train and subway system I would occasionally tell people whom I noticed looking for the correct train which one they should take. It was up to them to follow however I did my part in telling. It is only with concern that I will continue to say practices such as yoga are not the way, the star, to follow that will lead you to Christ. Such things will only burden you on the journey and they must be let go. Travel light. Jesus gives instructions on what one must take to follow Him. He says "leave everything." At the same time God is not outdone in generosity so if one gives Him even their body, their exercise, He will repay that gift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 [quote name='vee8' timestamp='1326047058' post='2365037'] When I lived in a large city with a complex train and subway system I would occasionally tell people whom I noticed looking for the correct train which one they should take. It was up to them to follow however I did my part in telling. It is only with concern that I will continue to say practices such as yoga are not the way, the star, to follow that will lead you to Christ. Such things will only burden you on the journey and they must be let go. Travel light. Jesus gives instructions on what one must take to follow Him. He says "leave everything." At the same time God is not outdone in generosity so if one gives Him even their body, their exercise, He will repay that gift. [/quote] so God will make me thin? alright!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 [quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1326033319' post='2364969'] I had no idea that community did that, I thought they are the Tridentine ones that aren't in line with Rome? [/quote] There is more than one community being discussed in this thread. Some are the ones that have separated from the Church(!) and thus do not have the sacraments. These tend to be traditional, Latin-mass groups. Others are the ones that are (officially) part of the Church, but have strayed very far away from Catholic teaching and practices. These tend to be more liberal. Obviously, both have their own dangers and discerners should use caution and keep their eyes open. The community referenced in the post you quoted (that changed the language of the liturgy) was one of the second type, a community in communion with the Church, but headed in a direction that should give Catholics faithful to the Church pause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Here is an interesting article i read about yoda: How Yoga Can Wreck Your Body http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wreck-your-body.html?pagewanted=5&_r=1&ref=magazine&src=me [IMG]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Hans_Breuer/Yoda_Emoticon_by_jaredm.gif[/IMG] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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