Please Be Careful

[MissScripture]

Moving to the debate table.

[Maximilianus]

[vee]

Carmelite yoga

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CSFZHG_faKw/TuPc1iO1RVI/AAAAAAAAAz0/EOP9ZGCHMvg/s800/09.JPEG[/img]

[vee]

more Carmelite yoga

[img]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-xE_1QoxkH7c/TuPc1VZ7YTI/AAAAAAAAAzw/RM8LVxDAJHs/s720/07.JPEG[/img]

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='TIWW' timestamp='1325989685' post='2364748']
Thomas Merton must be jumping up and down, if he'd per chance read this thread, with all of his work with the Dali Lama to find common pathways between East & West, Buddhist and and Catholic / Christian Theology. There are a couple of issues here, and I do understand that this is a more traditional thinking web site. A couple of Benedictine Monks and I were just having a discussion the other day about what it might be for God to have to put up with all of this thinking, where if you don't fall into "my" line of thinking on an issue that one's soul is in peril. When we are called home, and kneel at the feet of God, there is no way that I can imagine Him saying that "Oh dear, you are a Buddhist, or a Menonite or an Anglican or a pre Vatican 2 Catholic, sorry the gates are closed. I do think it might be well that Faith is a personal belief in one's God, and that relationship is between the believer and Christ. It reminds me of the days in the 1950's where all us dear little Catholic school kids felt so bad that all the Lutherans and Baptists in town were going to hell. Some of this talk is just dangerous. Even the Holy father is trying to find common bonds with our non Catholic believers.
[/quote]

TIWW:

All religions may have commonalities, but honestly, I am Catholic. Hence I truly and honestly believe that the full Truth is in the Catholic Church (otherwise I wouldn't be Catholic). Do I automatically judge others who are not Catholic in a harsh manner? No -- I have coworkers who are of all religions, and we all respect one another. But, when it comes to my faith beliefs, I will stand as a Catholic.

[quote name='TIWW' timestamp='1325989685' post='2364748']
Yoga is a form of exercise, as is Tai Chi, pilates, swimming. And what if they were practicing Yoga and were as well a Buddhist?? There seems to be a tendency by some here to delineate and discount others who are not "Like minded" to them and thus incite argument and defense of a different belief. It, if nothing else, is horribly judgmental, exclusive and most lacking in any kind of Charity. A friend of my father's and I were having a discussion when my dad was dying, about the war in Iraq. I was saying how horrible it was that so many millions of lives were being lost, especially the innocent Muslim women and children, casualties of war. She said why should I worry about it, they were all going to hell anyway, because they were not Christian!! That is what her Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church taught. !!
[/quote]

Yoga (and Tai Chi, and probably pilates but I'd have to do some research) are not simply exercises. They come out of a religious ideology. In fact ... part of what I had learned about Yoga is that the poses are blessings/adorations/etc. to certain deities. That is my concern about it. That is why when my former spiritual director suggested it, I hesitated. I did start to follow his suggestion -- I went out and brought a mat, I brought some beginner DVDs, and I started looking into classes. The cheapest classes -- at the Hindu Temple. Why would the classes be held there? Oh -- and the classes sometimes were joined together with the meditation portion. That sealed my decision that I should not be doing or going to Yoga classes. Period.

And to add fuel to the fire -- is there a possibility that some of the deities in Hinduism are not referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Yes. I believe it is a possibility. Hence I am quite cautious.

Your father's friend is wrong to simply say "they're all going to hell" for being Muslim. I wouldn't say that -- because only God knows the heart. But as a Catholic I have to say that they do not have the fullness of faith.

edit: typo

Edited January 8, 2012 by cmariadiaz

[vee]

Jesus said preach the Gospel to the ends of the Earth, that being the message that [u]He alone [/u] is the Way, the Truth, and the life. Pick up one's cross and follow Him, not pick up one's yoga mat.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1325992479' post='2364780']

Yoga (and Tai Chi, and probably pilates but I'd have to do some research) are not simply exercises.
[/quote]
Pilates isn't religiously based. It was created by a guy named Joseph Pilates for physical fitness.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1325993439' post='2364791']
Pilates isn't religiously based. It was created by a guy named Joseph Pilates for physical fitness.
[/quote]

I knew someone would know for sure Thanks for the info!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TIWW' timestamp='1325989685' post='2364748']
Thomas Merton must be jumping up and down, if he'd per chance read this thread, with all of his work with the Dali Lama to find common pathways between East & West, Buddhist and and Catholic / Christian Theology. There are a couple of issues here, and I do understand that this is a more traditional thinking web site. A couple of Benedictine Monks and I were just having a discussion the other day about what it might be for God to have to put up with all of this thinking, where if you don't fall into "my" line of thinking on an issue that one's soul is in peril. When we are called home, and kneel at the feet of God, there is no way that I can imagine Him saying that "Oh dear, you are a Buddhist, or a Menonite or an Anglican or a pre Vatican 2 Catholic, sorry the gates are closed. I do think it might be well that Faith is a personal belief in one's God, and that relationship is between the believer and Christ. It reminds me of the days in the 1950's where all us dear little Catholic school kids felt so bad that all the Lutherans and Baptists in town were going to hell. Some of this talk is just dangerous. Even the Holy father is trying to find common bonds with our non Catholic believers.

Yoga is a form of exercise, as is Tai Chi, pilates, swimming. And what if they were practicing Yoga and were as well a Buddhist?? There seems to be a tendency by some here to delineate and discount others who are not "Like minded" to them and thus incite argument and defense of a different belief. It, if nothing else, is horribly judgmental, exclusive and most lacking in any kind of Charity. A friend of. my father's and I were having a discussion when my dad was dyeing, about the war in Iraq. I was saying how horrible it was that so many Millions of lives were being lost, especially the innocent Muslim women and children, casualties of war. She said why should I worry about it, they were all going to hell anyway, because they were not Christian!! That is what her Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church taught. !!
[/quote]


I think the title of this thread is just perfect. Please Be Careful. We went from discussing communities that are not in communion with Rome to communities that might do things that are not quite appropriate and somewhere along the way the subject of yoga came up, and as this topic has been debated many times before on phatmass, it just seemed that this whole thread was starting to become a debate instead of a vocational issue, so I asked that it be moved. Thank you MS for doing so.

I have no problem with anyone doing what their conscience feels is right, as I am certainly in no position to render a judgment about how others live their lives. My concern was that there ‘seemed to be’ some kind of support for ‘Yoga’ on the thread from someone who is highly respected and admired in Vocation Station. All I wanted to do was to add a caution that we need to be careful about appearing to give unqualified support for yoga as it was a controversial subject. I was then informed that this person was discussing simple stretching exercises, not yoga itself and the point was clarified for me.

Your post TIWW also seems to mix up two issues, one is having respect for the religion of another person and the other issue is whether or not to incorporate aspects of other faiths and philosophies into our own Catholic religion. I could be misreading you however.

I made no mention at all of other people’s religions or being anti-ecumenical or anything of this nature. Jesus was an example of compassion and love for everyone. But I do still advise caution whenever approaching or using methods that have originally been instrumental in another religion, faith or form of worship. Any death should be mourned in my opinion, and even more so if the person has not known the Truth here on earth. Only God can judge their soul however and we can always pray for his mercy and justice for those who do not share our faith. We should show respect for the faiths of others, but that does not mean that we have to adapt their methods and practices and incorporate them into our own. The Church has been charged with protecting the sacred traditions and for guiding us through change. It isn’t for each us of us to find and incorporate every spiritual or religious practice that we like into our own.

As for Merton, once again we are talking about an issue that can be controversial and therefore requires one to ‘be careful’. Merton was a great writer, there is no doubt of that, and he has been a great inspiration to many people. But, he is an example of our need for caution when investigating other religions as his own life caused distress and controversy among many people who thought that he was actually leaning more towards Eastern religions and forgetting his Catholic faith towards the end. There are also endless debates about his actions personally so not everyone feels comfortable using him as an example. He has as many defenders as detractors though and many feel that the Church has not been fair to him. This is also a whole topic for the Debate Table J

The controversy surrounding the end of his life does not invalid his writings. BUT… even his fans can advise caution at times. This post comes from a self-declared fan of Merton, Christopher Blosser, who writes in his blog [u][url="http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/01/towards-critical-appreciation-of.html"]Towards a Critical Appreciation of [/url][/u][url="http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/01/towards-critical-appreciation-of.html"]Thomas Merton[/url]: [b](emphasis in bold is mine)[/b]


[quote]…
That said, Merton's later writings on other religions -- particularly those on Buddhism -- [b]should nevertheless be read with great care and critical judgment by the laity[/b]. Raymond Bailey (curiously, a Southern Baptist minister who became Director of the Thomas Merton Studies Center at Bellannine College in the early 80s) goes into detail as to why this caution is necessary in his study [url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?tag=christopsweb&path=tg%2Fdetail%2F-%2F0385071736%2Fqid%3D1104621561%2Fsr%3D8-1%2Fref%3Dsr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14%3Fv%3Dglance%26s%3Dbooks%26n%3D507846"]Thomas Merton on Mysticism[/url] (Doubleday Image, 1975). It's a little long, but worth repeating in full:

Merton's writings on Eastern mysticism are tempered by repeated allusions to traditional Christian symbols. His diaries written in the last months he spent at the hermitage record his preferences for the Fathers for reading in the cottage and for the works of the Zen masters in the fields. However[b], his published works are not always instructive as to how the Zen experience can contribute to the Christian experience[/b] or how the study of Eastern religions or the practice of oriental techniques [b]engender or complement the Christian experience[/b]. Some of his published works might well be interpreted as syncretistic and [b]might leave the reader with the impression that it does not matter what religious expression one's spirituality takes[/b] as long as it has broken through the facade of the illusionary self.
[/quote]

And the quote goes on to explain this about Merton…

[quote]…

The casual reader might overlook the fact that [b]Merton spent half his life disciplining himself [/b]and reaching a level where he could think and write in terms of the "universal" man and transculturation. Even then, [b]he considered himself a beginner[/b] who had much to learn.

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/01/towards-critical-appreciation-of.html
[/quote]

If Merton himself required so much training to begin to understand Eastern religions, then the ordinary lay person should ‘be careful’ when reading him.

I repeat again that my simple request with regard to religious communities, to yoga and to Merton is “Please Be Careful”.

[Vincent Vega]

And here I was thinking the seventies had ended!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1325995756' post='2364824'] And here I was thinking the seventies had ended! [/quote]

and a voice was heard from the peanut gallery

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm sorry if the yoga conversation got started because of my comment..

I don't wish to debate... If I speak against yoga it's because I've always felt a strong warning about it in my heart and when I researched it, I saw things that really bothered me. For example, yoga means "union"; but the Hindu idea of union with the divine is very different from the Catholic understanding. In Hinduism, you lose your individuality in this "union";, while in Christianity, we surrender our wills but we are still persons made by God. I read that all yoga, even "hatha yoga"; which is what is practiced in many fitness clubs, etc, is in essence related to something called "kundalini"; yoga. I read that all yoga is related to its spirituality and can't be made into simple exercise because the exercises are based on the spirituality. "Kundalini" yoga is based on the idea that there's a "serpent goddess" at the base of the spine and the exercises [i]are preparation for meditations [/i]that cause a person to be connected to some type of "energy" (of this "goddess"?). I read about what happens to people when they go through this, and in parts it sounds very different from anything Christian mysticism teaches. The person sometimes begins acting hysterically, and feels like their mind is being intruded upon and controlled, and is sometimes even physically forced into yoga postures. We know that God always respects free will even in mystical experiences. And we really shouldn't seek spiritual experiences, but "kundalini yoga" and other Eastern practices seem to involve this "seeking"; very much; someone correct me if I'm wrong. That seems dangerous and St Teresa warned of it... I know the part about being forced into yoga postures sounds kind of far-fetched but that's what I read, and - how do we know truly why yoga became so popular in North America, while it's a Hindu practice? If anyone would like the link, here it is..I think its a Protestant website and it doesn't speak with a neutral voice..but the article is sourced and they quote people who support yoga: [url="http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0402W3.htm%20%20I"]http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0402W3.htm [/url]

[url="http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/new-age/NA0402W3.htm%20%20I"]I[/url] also have a book by an Eastern Orthodox author, who was really involved in Hinduism and yoga and eventually became demonically possessed and was healed by an Orthodox monk at Mount Athos (Elder Paisios). I'm not saying Hinduism = possession, but that's what happened to this man and he sounds very sincere and provides much detail of his journey. What also really convinced me was what Fr John Hardon said about yoga: [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0275.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0275.html[/url] and what Fr Gabriel Amorth, the Vatican exorcist, recently said: [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/harry-potter/8915691/Harry-Potter-and-yoga-are-evil-says-Catholic-Church-exorcist.html"]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/harry-potter/8915691/Harry-Potter-and-yoga-are-evil-says-Catholic-Church-exorcist.html[/url]

Importantly, Pope Benedict has said that yoga can lead a person to feelings they might confuse with the actions of the Holy Spirit, thus leading to a "cult of the body".

The reason I share this is not because I want to preach at anyone but like I said I feel a warning about it all and something really doesn';t seem right to me there, so I share the information I found with others so they could maybe pray about it and make a more informed decision about yoga I can't tell people what to do, but only share information. I know many people don't feel uncomfortable with it. I don't know if I'm wrong, - I've certainly been wrong before but I dont feel like risking it. I'm sure Fr Gabriel Amorth knows these subjects very well. I personally try to just stick to traditional Catholic devotions like the Rosary. We have such a treasure in the Church and the spiritualities in it have all been tried and tested by the Saints. Eastern spiritualities have a different focus and their methods also differ, but often seem to contradict Christian methods. (like how we are advised by the Church, not to seek experiences). I say - we can't go wrong just sticking to the Church and Christ I don't at all hate people of other religions, I love them and I know they are people who were created and loved by God. But I also believe that while other practices are no doubt sincere and are efforts to find God, - the fullness of truth is in the Church. There is often such a fear of being unecumenical. I think we should love and respect everyone, whatever their beliefs, and not argue with them, but speak gently and humbly (which I fail at much..). However, as our Pope says, we should avoid any relativism. I don't think anyone here suscribes to relativism, - I'm just clarifying.

just my two cents friends again I could be wrong and it's not my place to tell anyone what to do, but I', just saying along with others, to be careful.

Edited January 8, 2012 by MarysLittleFlower

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325996145' post='2364826']
and a voice was heard from the peanut gallery
[/quote]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Mr_peanut.png[/img]

[truthfinder]

Vee's pictures are from the Carmel in B.C., Canada

What she didn't post is the picture of them trying to herd the llamas and alpacas - talk about exercise

TBH, there are communities on both side of the fence who are either disobedient in their supposed traditions or their disobedience through New Age-y/Eastern practices. In reality, they're just as damaging and just as scandalous to the faithful, and we need to pray for all of them. I don't think we should be debating which is worse.

Edited January 8, 2012 by truthfinder

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1326001728' post='2364873']
Vee's pictures are from the Carmel in B.C., Canada

What she didn't post is the picture of them trying to herd the llamas and alpacas - talk about exercise

TBH, there are communities on both side of the fence who are either disobedient in their supposed traditions or their disobedience through New Age-y/Eastern practices. In reality, they're just as damaging and just as scandalous to the faithful, and we need to pray for all of them. I don't think we should be debating which is worse.
[/quote]

I don't think the debate was per se about the communities ... the debate came about because of the yoga references. If you read the thread I don't think anyone really started debating about the communities.

This thread really should split off from the original. I know I went off topic