Please Be Careful

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325919037' post='2364363']
That's why I said to take it to the Debate Table because it is something that everything looks at differently... and since I was very involved with Eastern religions before I became a Catholic, I guess I have more concerns than most at the religious overtones to many exercises. BTW, even Tai chi has strong roots in various Eastern religions including Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism and has a concept of [i]t'ai chi[/i] or the [i]Supreme Ultimate[/i] is used in various Chinese philosophical schools, usually to represent the contrast in opposing categories, or the interplay of those categories usually termed yin and yang.

I am not saying they are bad and I return to my main point of being careful not to seem to support them unconditionally and to discern carefully what to take from them and how to present them to others. None of us would be the first to slowly slip into things like meditation without Jesus etc. by investigating Eastern religions and philosophies. I start to worry when I see people embracing without question anything from Eastern religions. Vocation Station is not the place to debate this though.

[/quote]

Agreed ... I'm not debating. I did want to say what I found (and to state the obvious I guess ... each needs to make a decision). I've got strong opinions that I'm purposely not stating to avoid the debate.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1325919840' post='2364366']
Agreed ... I'm not debating. I did want to say what I found (and to state the obvious I guess ... each needs to make a decision). I've got strong opinions that I'm purposely not stating to avoid the debate.
[/quote]

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Totally Franciscan' timestamp='1325911905' post='2364319']
Indwelling Trinity, how lovely to read your posts again. They always give me food for thought and warm my heart. Since this is a religious life discernment forum, I think it imperative that those who know of the irregularities of some communities share that - without judgment - but share it nonetheless. I would never have known these nuns in Colorado were not regular, and I take offense at communities that try to hide that fact about themselves. With that said, I would like to add that I was in a Carmel that had some irregularities, which I did not know until I entered. It was only apparent in living there for one week, and then I was told. I spent the next year and a half trying to come to terms with it, but in the end could not. The bishop disbanded the community (I can't think of the legal term for disbanded, but you get the idea). Since I was young at the time and did not have a spiritual director, I was at a loss as to what to do vocation wise. I was very much lost. I had planned to spend the rest of my life there, and then it was pulled out from beneath me. Since you brought up obedience, I would like to add something that I have struggled with these many years. I saw my sisters struggling in obedience when they knew things were not correct. They were always obedient, but they were obedient in doing the wrong - at least going along with it. I just wonder when being obedient is not the best thing for one's soul.
[/quote]


Totally Franciscan TY so much for this post. I have been first hand in your very shoes more than once... On one hand i was taught blind obedience and on the other hand i could not negate in my heart the truth of some of the irregularities i saw in community. Being caught in this dilemma is a very painful place to be. Does one obey and trust that God will write straight with broken lines or does one speak out the truth,while all the time wondering if they lack true obedience and at the same time risking rejection and being labeled as a trouble maker not only in community, but risk being marked for any future potential community?

I truly don't know the absolute right answer to this... maybe someone wiser than i can shed light on this dilemma. I guess given one's motives, either course of action can merit God's grace. For myself, I cannot in my heart say yes to something if i know it is intrinsically wrong or hurtful to the health or spiritual well being of others or myself.

My vocation has spanned through one of the more turbulent times in the Church and the order, and without trying to be dramatic, i can truly say i have paid a high personal price for my choices, beginning in Catholic High school at a time when it was not acceptable to be more cautious let alone conservative. I was highly ridiculed by classmates and the Sisters who taught me, when i chose to enter Mother Teresa's. At that time she was not yet in vogue.

Later in Carmel i had to weather the conflict of desiring the Constitutions over the Declarations, harsh criticism for privately questioning the orthodoxy of certain practices to my superiors, ,that according to OHM teachings were clearly not in keeping with the spirit of her reform. I suffered in not accepting Pop Psychoiogy for true spirituality, time tested through the ages. The list goes on... I know many of you have also bee there too.

Do not get me wrong... I am not a rabid conservative or of a more fundamentalist, so to say, frame of mind by any means. But some things just intrinsically lie outside of the Carmelite vocation.

But speaking up about it is a quick way to increase as Nunsense jokingly said, the punitive way in ones life! But as i said, i cannot say yes when my heart says no, and i think Vatican II was right in calling for a responsible obedience, yet with that being said, if you choose to speak the truth, try to do so gently and humbly first examining ones conscience and motives and then after much prayer if you chose to speak or question how things are being done, be prepared to pay the price. This is not true only for Carmel but for any vocation. Always entertain in ones mind that our own truth is not absolute and that is why we have the Church to guide us.

But even the Church makes mistakes outside of the realm of faith and morals. I happily look to today as we are once again revisiting practices abandoned since the council rediscovering their hidden treasure. We again are redefining the council with more of an appreciation for our historical roots and the validity of certain practices while at the same time taking into account the practical exigencies of living in today's world.

I often pray that this new resurgence of so many beautiful vocations is not just a nostalgic backlash for a generation of young people who have grown up in a world where too much freedom and lack of structure has left them devoid of any meaningful roots and so in desperation seek to blindly reclaim all that was "old." as being good. The whole reason for the council was not of a doctrinal nature but rather so that the church may truly once again rediscover the simplicity of it's Gospel values.

Unfortunately many saw this as breaking loose from fetters that choked them because in many ways the system then, had created an almost robotic response to religious life weighed down with many entrapments not essential to true religious life; and in what i call a knee jerk reaction, they threw out the proverbial baby with the bath water leaving hungry whole generations of young people.

I pray each of you now entering or discerning religious life will have the wisdom and fortitude not to recreate older mistakes but rather bring the pendulum back to center where tradition and truth, love and orthodoxy mercy and peace will once again meet bringing all things to Unity in Him.

Christianity like the cross is two dimensional. We need to rediscover and deepen the vertical dimension of our own personal relationship with God as individuals and as a praying Church before we can truly effectually influence the horizontal human aspects of a world so deeply in need of God; a world that has all but forgotten God.

All of this takes much courage. and is one of the great challenge for vocations today; to Live and Speak the truth lovingly with humility of heart. To me this is a necessity if we are to continue to grow as individuals and as community. Yet at the same time not everything needs to be spoken. the trick is to know what to do when and only prayer and silent listening of a humble heart will teach us the wisdom to know the difference.

But remember, there is a price for speaking out the truth. Throughout all the ages, human nature remains essentially the same and in many ways one who does not conform to mass opinion, is apt to be rejected as an outcast. Look to the lives of many of the Saints and you will find good company.


The price Christ paid for speaking the truth was to hang on a gibbet, on an abandoned hill outside the walls of his ancestors, naked scorned and rejected by all.

I do not encourage creating ones own crosses, but if it comes down to the truth, remember you are not alone... that Someone much greater went there before you to show you the way.... His truth was rooted in Infinite Mercy of which we are now receivers.

Finally in closing, i love what our Holy rule teaches us... first let all you say and do have the word of God as an accompaniment, and secondly, have moderation as a guide to all the virtues...

This is just my personal opinion and i have no expectations that anyone else agree.

My love to you all.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Indwelling Trinity

[AccountDeleted]

God protects those who err through obedience. I have posted about this before but there was a Carmelite community in the UK where the Prioress decided to start a new foundation without the approval of her Bishop. She took some of the nuns with her to do this adn when the Bishop found out he excommunicated them all. When an investigation was conducted, it was determined that the nuns were simply acting under obedience, so they were reinstated and returned to their convent but the Prioress had the excommunication lifted only when she agreed to be sent to another convent to live out her life and never to become Prioress again.

I am more like I.T. in that I find it hard not to express myself when I see irregularities, but I have this same problem in the world. I was fired from a job once for standing up for one of my staff when he was wrongly accused of something. I knew they were just trying to get rid of him but I preferred to tell the truth rather than play the political games they wanted. And as I.T. also said, Our Lord spoke the Truth and was condemned for it. But he also didn't stand up and shout in his own defence. In religious life, one should always speak from a point of humility. It is also good to remember that our own view may not always be correct either so we should give the benefit of the doubt to our superiors as they have been placed in their position by God and the Church. Unless something is obviously against the laws of God or man, then it is better to obey even if it doesn't seem to make much sense, and trust that God will take care of things. But I don't always follow my own advice either

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325917185' post='2364354'] Beatitude - no one here is attacking faith at all, but perhaps re-reading this post of hers might explain my reaction... She does not use the words, 'stretching exercises', she uses the word "Yoga" and says she is qualified to teach it, which might mean it is not just generic stretching exercises, but actually Yoga. She does use caps for the words Supple Strength... but I don't know if that is a brand name or just a description. [/quote]

I thought the capitals for Supple Strength, and the clarification that it is a purely physical exercise were fairly obvious, maybe I missed putting inverted commas round 'yoga' to point out that its not, but hey ho! I clearly state I am qualified to teach SS.I literally do not time to read a debate about something I honestly have no interest in whatsoever so will leave you to it.

Maybe we should debate the spiritual dangers of frisbee next?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325926854' post='2364383']
I thought the capitals for Supple Strength, and the clarification that it is a purely physical exercise were fairly obvious, maybe I missed putting inverted commas round 'yoga' to point out that its not, but hey ho! I clearly state I am qualified to teach SS.I literally do not time to read a debate about something I honestly have no interest in whatsoever so will leave you to it.

Maybe we should debate the spiritual dangers of frisbee next?
[/quote]

Faith, very cute end but the tone of your post suggests that you have taken offence at my posts, which was definitely not intended. I have had time now to google SS but it is not well known outside the UK and it does seem to be something that the YMCA offers as simply physical exercise, which is great. But it is understandable that I was unsure since I have never heard of this method before (although I have heard of Yoga and Pilates and Tai Chi which seem to be the basis for the SS method).

As for Frisbee, I have seen no Church documents of a controversial nature about this exercise, not does it seem to be based on any religion or philosophy, as yoga and tai chi are. So I think I have been perfectly justified in warning against supporting yoga without mentioning such exercises as Frisbee!

Anyway, I am sure you don’t have time to debate this since you are entering tomorrow, and you have all of our prayers and best wishes on your special day.

[Indwelling Trinity]

Nunsense makes a very good point which i have neglected.. and that is That our Lord did not stand up and shout in his own defense. He remained meek and quiet when unjustly accused. This behavior in religious life to me is still valid ... although difficult to do, great merit can be had in not unnecessarily excusing oneself for in the end it is God who will justify us. It gives us opportunity to imitate the silence and meekness of the Heart of Christ if accepted with the right intentions. At the same time such silence does not negate the truth nor turn a blind eye towards truth.

Nevertheless to me, and i speak for myself alone, I continually beg God to teach me the wisdom to know the times for silence and the time to speak and that if i do i pray it may be with a humble heart that only seeks that which is good, not for myself but for all involved. OHM taught her daughters to each be strong and living stones behaving as if the good of the order depended on each one. A poor para phase of her words. My apologies. Pehaps someone knows where the exact quote comes from in her writings.

[AccountDeleted]

As I.T. says there is a time for silence and a time for speaking up, and of course discernment of spirits in which one to do is always important. That one Prioress was disobedient in not obtaining permission from her Bishop to start a new community and in the end was rebuked for it, but St Mary McKillop defied her Bishop's orders because she felt she had permission from Rome for her actions, and she was also excommunicated, but in the end she was also validated and declared a saint. She spoke up for what she perceived as an injustice and God proved her right... so in all things we need to discern carefully (just as when we do with communities) and to trust that God is not blind to what is happening. We may not get our reward until heaven (St Joan of Arc wasn't recognised as a saint in her life!) but that doesn't mean we need to worry that God doesn't know our intentions as well as our actions.

[Indwelling Trinity]

Wow! I must be tired.. my last two sentences in my last post make even no sense to me connection wise.! Ergo time for quiet and silent prayer, then a little bit of sleep! I have written and spoken too much today! Now back to my prayer room...

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' timestamp='1325930970' post='2364393']
Wow! I must be tired.. my last two sentences in my last post make even no sense to me connection wise.! Ergo time for quiet and silent prayer, then a little bit of sleep! I have written and spoken too much today! Now back to my prayer room...
[/quote]

[Totally Franciscan]

Yet again, Indwelling Trinity, you have put my heart at rest (you too Nunsense) knowing that I did the right thing. I am sorry that you too had gone through such turmoil in your communities, but in reading your post, I can see how God used these circumstances for you and for me as part of our growing in love and trust of Him. Sometimes I wonder just how I managed, but then I know it is due to His Grace. There was a reason for all of this, which we will not know until we reach union with Him; I am confident in that. What is that phrase - let go and let God? It all works to His greater honor and glory. ID, I wish you had been around to talk this all out when it was happening to me, but I suppose in God's time, you were!

[Strictlyinkblot]

Wow! The only word for that yoga thread is epic

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

Sorry everyone. It's my profile pic that I have been meaning to change, I knew that this order was not in communion with Rome (learned that from Phatmass), and I just have been using this as my profile picture because the picture is pretty. I'm sorry if it has bothered anyone. I do not agree with their order, I simply liked the beautiful picture.

[TIWW]

Thomas Merton must be jumping up and down, if he'd per chance read this thread, with all of his work with the Dali Lama to find common pathways between East & West, Buddhist and and Catholic / Christian Theology. There are a couple of issues here, and I do understand that this is a more traditional thinking web site. A couple of Benedictine Monks and I were just having a discussion the other day about what it might be for God to have to put up with all of this thinking, where if you don't fall into "my" line of thinking on an issue that one's soul is in peril. When we are called home, and kneel at the feet of God, there is no way that I can imagine Him saying that "Oh dear, you are a Buddhist, or a Menonite or an Anglican or a pre Vatican 2 Catholic, sorry the gates are closed. I do think it might be well that Faith is a personal belief in one's God, and that relationship is between the believer and Christ. It reminds me of the days in the 1950's where all us dear little Catholic school kids felt so bad that all the Lutherans and Baptists in town were going to hell. Some of this talk is just dangerous. Even the Holy father is trying to find common bonds with our non Catholic believers.

Yoga is a form of exercise, as is Tai Chi, pilates, swimming. And what if they were practicing Yoga and were as well a Buddhist?? There seems to be a tendency by some here to delineate and discount others who are not "Like minded" to them and thus incite argument and defense of a different belief. It, if nothing else, is horribly judgmental, exclusive and most lacking in any kind of Charity. A friend of. my father's and I were having a discussion when my dad was dyeing, about the war in Iraq. I was saying how horrible it was that so many Millions of lives were being lost, especially the innocent Muslim women and children, casualties of war. She said why should I worry about it, they were all going to hell anyway, because they were not Christian!! That is what her Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church taught. !!

Edited January 8, 2012 by TIWW

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TIWW' timestamp='1325989685' post='2364748']
Thomas Merton must be jumping up and down, if he'd per chance read this thread, with all of his work with the Dali Lama to find common pathways between East & West, Buddhist and and Catholic / Christian Theology. There are a couple of issues here, and I do understand that this is a more traditional thinking web site. A couple of Benedictine Monks and I were just having a discussion the other day about what it might be for God to have to put up with all of this thinking, where if you don't fall into "my" line of thinking on an issue that one's soul is in peril. When we are called home, and kneel at the feet of God, there is no way that I can imagine Him saying that "Oh dear, you are a Buddhist, or a Menonite or an Anglican or a pre Vatican 2 Catholic, sorry the gates are closed. I do think it might be well that Faith is a personal belief in one's God, and that relationship is between the believer and Christ. It reminds me of the days in the 1950's where all us dear little Catholic school kids felt so bad that all the Lutherans and Baptists in town were going to hell. Some of this talk is just dangerous. Even the Holy father is trying to find common bonds with our non Catholic believers.

Yoga is a form of exercise, as is Tai Chi, pilates, swimming. And what if they were practicing Yoga and were as well a Buddhist?? There seems to be a tendency by some here to delineate and discount others who are not "Like minded" to them and thus incite argument and defense of a different belief. It, if nothing else, is horribly judgmental, exclusive and most lacking in any kind of Charity. A friend of. my father's and I were having a discussion when my dad was dyeing, about the war in Iraq. I was saying how horrible it was that so many Millions of lives were being lost, especially the innocent Muslim women and children, casualties of war. She said why should I worry about it, they were all going to hell anyway, because they were not Christian!! That is what her Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church taught. !!
[/quote]

Id' like to debate some things you have posted here but don't feel this is an appropriate place to do so. If this thread gets moved to Debate Table then I will. Otherwise I am out of this thread now.

Edited January 8, 2012 by nunsense