Please Be Careful

[AccountDeleted]

Good post Indwelling Trinity. I am not saying that anyone should discern with this Carmel, but they should act and think with charity. After all, there must have been people who were scandalised when St Mary McKillop was excommunicated or even to take it really far back, when the Prioress of Seville Maria de San Jose was put in prison by Doria.

These nuns are not in communion now, but wonderful things are happening with reconciliation in the Church and we only have to look at the Anglican nuns who have recently come back into the Church to know that God takes works in ways we can't imagine, but He takes His own time in doing so.

Let's pray for these women that they do reunite so that women can discern with them.

But for now, faith thank you reminding everyone to ensure that communities are in full communion with Rome before discerning with them. That's why phatmass is so wonderful. We can come here and ask for into about communities and find out things that aren't posted on their website!

Edited January 7, 2012 by nunsense

[Indwelling Trinity]

They are not a completely new community but an outgrowth of an old one my friend.

It warms my heart to see young and not so young vocations seeking like OHM to be true daughters of the Church, for that is what we should be. But even when OHM went back to the Incarnation under obedience, she did not seek to enforce her reform... she came gently and humbly for she knew her own stubbornness and tepidity in the past which save for God's grace she would have remained in. Yes i too pray for that unity to come again for my heart and soul breaths love for Carmel and it's way of life.

But, for myself, i humbly ask you to please add me to your own good prayers... for i am a much greater sinner than they and as such am in need of even greater mercy, for of myself i deserve to be an outcast too. Perhaps i already am.

As for myself, and i say this without any anger or rancor, but rather somethng i heard in my heart a in prayer a year or two ago at the hermitage.... Let the others go care for the 99 you go with the one lost sheep. And so i will, myself having become an outcast. Perhaps that is my vocation as a Carmelte for no two Carmelite vocations are ever the same.

God Reward you my Sister

Edited January 7, 2012 by Indwelling Trinity

[AccountDeleted]

I think something that may be even more dangrous than communities that are openly not in communion are those that officially are, but who have allowed questionable practices to creep into their lives. I have been in one of these communities and there are also those in the news that are officially part of the Church but who oppose Catholic teaching on things like the ordination of women and who attend conferences on such things despite Vatican requests for them not to or help women who want to have abortions. They make excuses for their disobedience that sound reasonable to others and thereby cause scandal and confusion. Discernment involves risk so that's why a good spiritual director is important.

[Sarah147]

Wow!

[Indwelling Trinity]

Agreed nunsense.... when i worked in Manhattan as a counselor at a house for runaways I knew sisters who were giving these pregnant teenage girls addresses of abortion doctors. I also visited on group of Contemplative Monks who had a statue of Buddha in their chapel as the Christ figure. There are many things to pray for... and i agree careful discernment is necessary as well a careful choice of a spiritual director.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Indwelling Trinity

[faithcecelia]

For me the warning lights were flashing when Scripture was changed to remove the unplesant bits from the Office.






As well as the male bits.

[AccountDeleted]

Doing things in Latin makes all that irrelevant! So much easier. I hate the gender neutral changes, especially when reading the Gospel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or calling God, our Mother and Father or calling Jesus a 'person' instead of a 'man'. Drives me nuts.

[Indwelling Trinity]

Yes... i agree... LOL. I am waiting for the new breviary to come out from Baronius press in both Latin and English taken from the Vulgate version of the bible and restoring some of the beautiful prayers said at the end of the office, especially Compline My favorite hour of the office when everything passes into profound silence of the night and the soul remain completely alone with God.

BTW.. completely approved by Rome.

[MarysLittleFlower]

wow

how do we avoid discerning with communities like these? I don't mean those that are not in communion with the Church, because we can check that.. but I mean the ones that are in communion but are not faithful and very liberalized theologically? I've heard of nuns doing yoga or praying to "mother earth", etc

It's unfortunate when communities separate from Rome and I would discern with the ones that are in communion, - but I feel sympathetic towards the "traditionalist" groups. I found my spirituality in the Latin Mass, etc, I love all the Church's traditions.. and even today, it's not always easy to practice this, because the Latin Mass is relatively rare. If it wasn't for the FSSP and diocesan Masses, I would not have access to this at all. After VII, - I don't know what things were like then because I was born decades later - but it seems like there was confusion about what the Council meant, and how to implement it, and apparently some people used it to promote their own agendas which the Church does not support. Well this probably happens today too, with the "ordination of women" or "pro choice Catholics" groups etc! So it must have been very hard for the religious orders back then.

So although I consider it important to be in union with the Church, I feel sympathetic towards these groups, and it really upsets me to hear about the unfaithful orders that incorporate non Christian spiritualities etc.

Edited January 7, 2012 by MarysLittleFlower

[cmaD2006]

Well the way to discern "community like these" is to do the same as discerning any community. Carefully.

And well, know your faith. Once you know at least the basics of your faith, you sort of start learning how to tell when something is completely legit vs. something completely off the wall.

Finally a good well rooted and rounded spiritual director helps a whole lot.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='MarysLittleFlower' timestamp='1325899382' post='2364219']
wow

how do we avoid discerning with communities like these? I don't mean those that are not in communion with the Church, because we can check that.. but I mean the ones that are in communion but are not faithful and very liberalized theologically? I've heard of nuns doing yoga or praying to "mother earth", etc

It's unfortunate when communities separate from Rome and I would discern with the ones that are in communion, - but I feel sympathetic towards the "traditionalist" groups. I found my spirituality in the Latin Mass, etc, I love all the Church's traditions.. and even today, it's not always easy to practice this, because the Latin Mass is relatively rare. If it wasn't for the FSSP and diocesan Masses, I would not have access to this at all. After VII, - I don't know what things were like then because I was born decades later - but it seems like there was confusion about what the Council meant, and how to implement it, and apparently some people used it to promote their own agendas which the Church does not support. Well this probably happens today too, with the "ordination of women" or "pro choice Catholics" groups etc! So it must have been very hard for the religious orders back then.

So although I consider it important to be in union with the Church, I feel sympathetic towards these groups, and it really upsets me to hear about the unfaithful orders that incorporate non Christian spiritualities etc.
[/quote]

Long, slow discernment with your eyes open. Yoga ia actually, in many cases, really Supple Strength - an exercise that uses similar positions and techniques without any spirituality at all. I am qualified to teach it and will certainly be doing it myself when I can, a Sunday if not before!

[Indwelling Trinity]

CMD I agree with you... but i would add one very basic thing that we often overlook or at least i do, and that is frequent prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance.... Faithfulness, knowledge of God's word , prayer, and Love... are the keys to a good discernment. "If anyone loves Me he will keep my word, and my Father will love Him and We shall come to him and make Our home with him."

There in lies each one's true vocation..in making our home with him and allowing him to make his home in us by living in His holy will. I think that if we strive to do this no matter how many seeming mistakes or wrong turns we may make along the way, the Father knowing our hearts will come and lead us to safely to our true home and we will know intimately, Emmanuel" God with us.

[vee]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325900682' post='2364232']
Long, slow discernment with your eyes open. Yoga ia actually, in many cases, really Supple Strength - an exercise that uses similar positions and techniques without any spirituality at all. I am qualified to teach it and will certainly be doing it myself when I can, a Sunday if not before!
[/quote]

I think the time would be better spent praying the Rosary.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1325903487' post='2364258']
I think the time would be better spent praying the Rosary.
[/quote]

My rosary will be said as well, but physical activity is important and I ensure I keep my body strong.

[AccountDeleted]

I don't think that yoga is something we should be promoting here on phatmass. It is still controversial to a lot of people, and if you are using the physical part of it for exercise, that is your choice, but especially since one of Vatican's chief exorcists has recently come out against it, I would just hesitate to offer one's support for it here. Perhaps if you took a discussion of it to the Debate Table, faith, that would be more appropriate then here in VS? Just a suggestion. There are many mixed feelings about this topic.