If You Install It, They Will Kneel....

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1325428124' post='2361168']
Though I have for the most part always been a liturgical traditionalist at heart, I'm embarrassed to say that I used to use the term "spirit of Vatican II" ...I think a lot of people that use these kinds of terms are just very poorly informed. Especially those of us that had catechesis that was absolutely horrible growing up.
[/quote]

Well, I think it's perfectly okay for people to receive standing, but I just wish everyone felt okay about people who want to kneel. That's why I really like this pastor for being so inclusive, and letting people see that either way is okay by the Church.

As for the 'spirit of Vat 2", i probably shouldn't have posted that as it sounds a bit snarky to me now. Yes, there was a spirit of Vat 2, but I just don't like the terms used to put others down or to support a particular pooint of view. But I'm going to be more positive from now on. This was just a great article about a lovely pastor!

[Ash Wednesday]

You didn't sound snarky at all. There's no denying that there is a often a great deal of resistance and hostility towards anything involving a revival or continued support of past traditions and practices. But like you said it's important to stay positive, too.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325377543' post='2360911']
But that presume having a pew with kneelers. some churches (one of the four in our parish) only has chairs, and I know a lot of US churches have chairs as well - no place to kneel, even during the Mass! When the Holy Father does a Mass, they use a prie dieu, so maybe this would be good too?
[/quote]

My parents' new church just built a new building. The old one had NO KNEELERS. At. all. The first time I went to Mass I nearly died from the shock--mostly because I could always tell what kind of church a church was by whether or not it had kneelers (no kneelers = protestant church).

The new one has kneelers!

However, I've never come across a Catholic church that had chairs but no kneelers. Most of the time, there is a little kneeler that pops out from the chair in front.

[Totus Tuus]

I like altar rails, but for those who actually want to kneel, nothing is stopping them. I just kneel on the ground.

[BarbTherese]

I think that the term "Spriit of Vatican2" can be misused. We are still called by God to obedience to all rightful authority over us in all that is not sinful - both secular and Church authorities - Vatican 2 did not change that. I think that spirit of V2 came to mean anything that is new and innovative has 'a green light', the go ahead - be it the really new or even the re-establishment in what was since much of this latter changed with V2 and a whole generation has passed and what was is the new nowadays. With Vatican2, The Church through our heirarchy ( we are not a democracy) wanted to take a long look at itself and its role in the world as the leaven of The Gospel in the world - and so many changes came about. This did not mean that change for the sake of change was the 'ruling'. The true spirit of V2 will read the Documents of V2 prayerfully and carefully and how The Church interprets these Documents. I think it was Pope Benedict who said that we have only just begun to understand Vatican 2.
The night before Jesus went to His Passion and Death, His moving and very heartfelt prayer was for unity "that they may be one as We are One". Unity is passionately in the Heart of Jesus and personally thus unity is a high priority and my preferences I hope can take a backseat to that. I think that our preferences are important nonethless and there are ways of legitimately expressing preferences without challenging unity and while obeying whatever The Church as the Authority of Christ on earth decides - such as expressed in a thread like this. I try anyway to bow to a more informed by The Holy Spirit authority than my own. "whatever thou shalt bind upon earth, it is bound also in Heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth is loosed also in Heaven". "I give to thee the Keys of The Kingdom".
Did change go too far with Vatican 2. There are possibly two perspectives on this.
1. Yes, The Church did go too far and things need to change
2. Perhaps The Holy Spirit wanted things to go as far as they did and reason is mystery - and perhaps that same Spriit now indicates that we re look once more and bring back such things as kneeling for Holy Communion, while making allowances for the elderly and disabled who may not be able to kneel. We already have permission for Masses in the vernacular, as well as Latin Masses. Some priests celebrate with a mixture of both.

Overriding all this is the fact that The Mass is The Mass and Sacred, Holy. Since ordinations are fewer, I am thankful that we still have Mass here in Australia anyway.

[quote]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfeccv2.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/...ia/cdfeccv2.htm[/url] "Ecclesiology of Vatican II ([b]Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger,
[font=Arial, Helvetica]Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith}[/font][/b]
" To the extent that we look upon the Church as organization ... like an association ... we have not yet arrived at a proper understanding of it. Instead, it is a living reality and our relationship with it ought to be[font=Arial, Helvetica]—[/font]life"

"Let me conclude. To understand the ecclesiology of Vatican II one cannot ignore chapters 4 to 7 of the Constitution [i]Lumen Gentium. [/i]These chapters discuss the laity, the universal call to holiness, the religious and the eschatological orientation of the Church. In these chapters the inner goal of the Church, the most essential part of its being, comes once again to the fore: holiness, conformity to God. [b]There must exist in the world space for God, where he can dwell freely so that the world becomes His "Kingdom". [u]Holiness is something greater than a moral quality[/u]. It is the presence of God with men, of men with God; it is God's "tent" pitched amongst men in our midst[/b] (cf. Jn 1,14). It is a new birth[font=Arial, Helvetica]—[/font]not from flesh and blood but from God (Jn 1,13). Orientation towards holiness is one and the same as eschatological orientation. Beginning with Jesus' message it is fundamental for the Church. [b]The Church exists to become God's dwelling place in the world, to become "holiness". This is the only reason there should be any struggle in the Church[font=Arial, Helvetica]—[/font][u]and not for precedence or for the first place[/u][/b]. All of this is repeated and synthesized in the last chapter of the Constitution on the Church that is dedicated to the Mother of the Lord." [/quote]

Edited January 2, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[MargaretTeresa]

I've yet to be in a church with an altar railing but if I ever do, I intend to kneel. The protestant church I attended growing up had one in the new building. A lot of the time we would kneel and they would distribute communion then the pastor said a prayer to dismiss us from the altar rail and let the next group come forward.

I have been in two chapels that didn't have the kneelers. One was at Our Lady of Wisdom, which is a home for older religious. It's in New Orleans. With so many using walkers and wheelchairs, they simply take the Host around to everyone. Much simpler.
The other was at the Redemptorist monastery where Bl Francis Xavier Seelos lived and died. It is also in New Orleans. It's also very small with two columns of chairs on either side of the center aisle. It's a very narrow little room. here's more on the shrine: [url="http://www.seelos.org/shrineIndex.html"]http://www.seelos.org/shrineIndex.html[/url]

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1325464394' post='2361387']
I think that the term "Spriit of Vatican2" can be misused.
[/quote]

Very true. I didn't read the rest of your post so I'm not going to say I'm agreeing or disagreeing, but this part at least I agree with. And anyone who hasn't actually *read* the four main documents of Vatican II shouldn't be hypothesizing on anything about VII, especially not what its "spirit" was.

[BarbTherese]

These are the four main documents of Vatican II:[list]
[*][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html"][i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i][/url] Sacred Liturgy
[*][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html"][i]Dei Verbum[/i][/url] Divine Revelation
[*][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html"][i]Lumen Gentium[/i][/url] Dogmatic Constitution on The Church
[*][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html"][i]Gaudium et Spes[/i][/url] Pastoral Constitution on The Church in the Modern World
[/list]

The 16 Documents of V2 can be found here with links to English translations : [url="http://www.ewtn.com/...ncils/v2all.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/...ncils/v2all.htm[/url]

[Sarah147]

Well, thank you! Most helpful.

Edited January 2, 2012 by JoyfulLife

[BarbTherese]

...........

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1325465642' post='2361393']
Very true. I didn't read the rest of your post so I'm not going to say I'm agreeing or disagreeing, but this part at least I agree with. And anyone who hasn't actually *read* the four main documents of Vatican II shouldn't be hypothesizing on anything about VII, especially not what its "spirit" was.
[/quote]

It's a bit like someone doing a cover of a song....but they have never actually listened to the song!



So anyway....altar rails! Yay!

Edited January 2, 2012 by Ash Wednesday

[Maximilianus]

Not 100% on topic with the use of altar rails but in spirit with the topic;

[url="http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-spirit-of-vatican-ii.html"]http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-spirit-of-vatican-ii.html[/url]