Ice_nine Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Just a question to throw out for the room. I've begun reading the lives of the saints, and the mortifications they practice make the sacrifices we make today seem like there's a lot left to be desired. They seemed to relish in every opportunity they had for pain so that they may grow closer to Christ and nowadays we get a headache and we're all "wahh I need some tylenol." I generally feel like we're good at making excuses at why we don't practice such strict mortifications as they did in days old. There doesn't seem to be a sufficient argument. I know I'm all over the place, but I guess my question is what makes these "old" practices (whipping yourself, extreme fasting and so on) so taboo and off-limits today? Were those saints really just a bit crazy or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I question this too... I don't totally understand the physical self-mortification thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I remember +Fulton J. Sheen saying something like "We don't need hair shirts anymore...our neighbors are hair shirts"... I think there is some wisdom there. Where I do agree with you is that the DESIRE for mortification might be lacking. But then, to the headache/tylenol analogy you made...I (and yes, I am odd) see God working through the tylenol. I don't see this as anti-moritficatin or even whimpy... I see it as smart. There are SO many ways to sucessfully accomplish proper mortification (which I would suggest a SD if one wants to go deeplu into that route). Speaking for me, there is not much I have 'to do' to find an opportunity for mortifcation; I just have to recognize it and offer it up willingly and with much love. Have we become 'soft'? eh, iono.. every generation says that of the upcoming one...but I do think life will ALWAYS hand us enough to offer up. You making it through this less than coherent post is yet another opportunity for mortification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaPetiteSoeur Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I don't think that not taking medication to deal with a headache is a good mortification. If God gave his creations (men) the knowledge to find medicines that make people feel better, than why not use them? As a sufferer of headaches due to noise or allergies (or other biological things), I'd be worthless to many people if headache medication wasn't there. Then I'd be unable to help others through my work and teaching. I agree with Archbishop Sheen. We have different hair shirts, but that doesn't make them less valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) I wonder if it is the self inflicted suffering of self imposed mortification [b]per se [/b]that makes saints, or is it [b]the reason[/b] that they imposed such things. Our saints in the past were so in love with Christ that they wanted to be close to Him in His physical sufferings and so inflicted pain on themselves. This can be to miss the central point of Christ Crucified. Christ suffered involuntarily - it was inflicted on Him and He accepted this involuntary suffering meekly and humbly. The Church does advocate that the best mortifications are involuntary mortifications accepted meekly and humbly. Our saints in the past viewed their bodies as 'the offender' and so punished their bodies. Rather today we recognize it is always our free will that is the offender, choosing what is contrary to God in some way. The flesh, for example, can present a temptation to us - but it is only temptation and Grace is sufficient and superior. If we give way to the flesh, as an example, our free will chooses to give way first. There can be self imposed mortification in loving that difficult neighbour and always striving to see the better side and encourage that - rather than snapping and snarling at a totally disagreeable person. To my way of thinking this is to mortify self love in the interests of love, of charity. There can be severe mortification in donating to charity and going without oneself to do so - and again, motivated by love, by charity, and concern about the less fortunate. There are almost endless opportunities in life for mortification, even severe mortification - that does not involve an actual inflicting serious physical pain on oneself and contributes to the welfare of others and charitable acts of hidden virtue in oneself. We can be very confident to my mind that God will allow sufficient in any life to make a great saint of the person. And great saints are the object of life. Of course, one can impose [b]severe[/b] mortification on the physical body - but for me personally, my body is the Temple of The Holy Spirit and to be respected, valued as His Temple. I can see nothing spiritually profitable in pain [b]per se [/b]unless it is involuntary pain which cannot be avoided, and accepted humbly and meekly. Suffering and pain per se is an evil and entered into creation through original sin. If such comes along and cannot be avoided, then a response of meekness and humble acceptance, enduring as best one can per se is what draws good out of an evil through God's Grace. I view medicine and medications as God's Gift to us in the struggle against pain and suffering in this life - and the response is gratitude and thanksgiving. And using them if necessary and as prescribed, if prescribed. The "if necessary" statement can have many reasons. Edited December 28, 2011 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyAnn Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 While such mortifications as some saints practiced may be beneficial for some (note some, and should never be undertaken without spiritual direction) for others they could equally be harmful. For example, I was a self-harmer. I'm covered in scars from it. Me practicing corporal mortification would be so dangerous not only to my spiritual life but to my physical health because I don't have the same limits as others. For me it's a bizarre kick and I go further and further over time, I know I have to be careful and watch myself. So am I now a wimp or unable to become a saint? No, it just means I recognise my own limitations and that does not make me (or anyone else who should/could not) any lesser than one who could practice those mortifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 The saints often practised mortifications of the flesh AFTER they had already perfected mortification of self and they had virtues, like charity and patience. Most of us need to start with the simple mortifications like being patient with a difficult person or being less selfish with others. Once we can honestly say that we love our neighbour as ourself (even the ones that are really hard to love) then we MIGHT be ready to take on physical mortifications, but we should ask a spiritual director about this first since we probably think we are more virtuous than we really are! For those who insiste on some mortifications, start with something as simple as denying yourself a treat that you really want (not a necessity like food but perhaps a candy bar or soft drink) or put off some gratification (like coming online or watching TV). There are a million and one LITTLE ways to discipline the self-love that usually motivates us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byzantine Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1325106033' post='2358679'] Just a question to throw out for the room. I've begun reading the lives of the saints, and the mortifications they practice make the sacrifices we make today seem like there's a lot left to be desired. They seemed to relish in every opportunity they had for pain so that they may grow closer to Christ and nowadays we get a headache and we're all "wahh I need some tylenol." I generally feel like we're good at making excuses at why we don't practice such strict mortifications as they did in days old. There doesn't seem to be a sufficient argument. I know I'm all over the place, but I guess my question is what makes these "old" practices (whipping yourself, extreme fasting and so on) so taboo and off-limits today? Were those saints really just a bit crazy or something? [/quote] They asked Abba Antony (Anthony? possibly St. Anthony the Great) about this hundreds of years ago and he basically said "Later on, temptations will increase so much that any progress will be amazing" or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 [quote name='Byzantine' timestamp='1325123621' post='2358963'] They asked Abba Antony (Anthony? possibly St. Anthony the Great) about this hundreds of years ago and he basically said "Later on, temptations will increase so much that any progress will be amazing" or something like that. [/quote] hmm that's really interesting. I just want to emphasize here that I wasn't calling anyone out for using medications and/or not tearing their body apart. It just seems to me that in this age we have become addicted to comfort. I sort of disagree that these mortifications were done after virtue had been achieved. It seems like a rationalization. To me it seems like a means to achieve virtue, done as things to tame the flesh (implying that at the time of mortification, there was still some sin/temptation/penance to deal with). Sometimes when I sin, or when I think about past sin, I feel the need to engage in some type of suffering as penance. The thing about giving stuff up and all is that to me its a more passive type of mortification. The struggle only comes when, for example, when you want the thing your giving up. But that usually only lasts periodically for a short spurt of time. With a more self-inflicted mortification, it seems the penance is more "active." And it's not like one needs to go crazy and draw blood, but to cause your body a little bit of pain . . . is that so extreme that its reserved only for the holiest among us? I'm certainly not holy, I'm trying, but I guess I just don't *get* why we are so averse to pain when back in the day . . . it wasn't the case. I don't really know. Maybe I'm just being difficult but . . . yaiono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byzantine Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1325130494' post='2359090'] is that so extreme that its reserved only for the holiest among us? [/quote] I'd play it safe and ask your priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I guess I would just be very careful under what conditions you use physical penance as it can be identified with perverted sexual gratification these days (as in S&M). I would highly recommend only doing this kind of penance under the direction of a spiritual director. The other danger is spiritual pride. One might not have to perfect to do this kind of thing, but I would think a high degree of sanctity is required to avoid self gratification and/or pride from developing. It is still done in some religious communities but mostly as a symbol and not as an actual physical pain. Just my opinion of course. Check it out with a SD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 It's not like I'm about to do it myself. I understand the concerns and would likely run into resistance if I told a spiritual director "hey think I'm gonna start whipping myself. It's nbd. I think we're too pansy-assed these days." It's just that the arguments that run counter to these practices aren't all that satisfying to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Going along with Archbishop Sheen said, I read somewhere that there is no need to seek suffering because in this life we shall certainly encounter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1325138817' post='2359184'] It's not like I'm about to do it myself. I understand the concerns and would likely run into resistance if I told a spiritual director "hey think I'm gonna start whipping myself. It's nbd. I think we're too pansy-assed these days." It's just that the arguments that run counter to these practices aren't all that satisfying to me. [/quote] Have you read many discussions about the saints who did these things? Not everyone agrees that what they did was right. St Francis even apologised to his body for doing it, and St John of the Cross, who also did physical penance, described it to others as the 'penance of beasts'. I am not opposed to physical penance but think it needs a lot of careful consideration and good advice and also an understanding of motivation behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325141468' post='2359204'] Have you read many discussions about the saints who did these things? Not everyone agrees that what they did was right. St Francis even apologised to his body for doing it, and St John of the Cross, who also did physical penance, described it to others as the 'penance of beasts'. I am not opposed to physical penance but think it needs a lot of careful consideration and good advice and also an understanding of motivation behind it. [/quote] No I haven't.This is very interesting information to have. I'm a novice student in these matters, and I admit that. Things aren't always what they initially *seem* to be on the surface, but it's hard for me to reconcile the stark contrast between penance of old days and our current practices. Perhaps with more study things will clarify themselves and become more evident, but at the present moment the lines are still really fuzzy. For me anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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