Don't Start Threads Focusing On Marriage In Here.

[Sarah147]

[Cherie]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325120457' post='2358872']
dUSt asks that we don't START threads that focus on marriage. He doesn't say never to discuss marriage in existing threads. He doesn't say those who are discerning married life can't post here. He doesn't say that teens can't read here. Read the sentence he wrote!!!!

Don't START threads that focus on marriage!! dUSt has spoken!
[/quote]

I think the discussion (because of course we will do whatever dUSt says, this is just feedback) is based on the fact that

1) Topics started on marriage in VS are rare,
2) The recent flurry of threads specifically regarding marriage are the result of some members who recently took a turn in their vocational discernment,
3) It doesn't seem harmful, but rather beneficial, to have a few topics on marriage because it is a vocation in the Church, VS is and always will be mainly focused on consecrated life, and to set a rule about "no topics started on marriage" would seem, perhaps, a bit stifling.

We're just giving some feedback. Which I hope is constructive and valuable, not worthless or argumentative.

[BarbTherese]

dUSt has indeed spoken! And as the authority on Phatmass it says it all.
To my mind its fair enough to state that threads cannot be started dealing specifically with marriage in this Forum. Of course "Vocation Station" does imply the broad range of vocations until one reads "the small print" and that it is confined to Religious Life and/or the priesthood. Hence it is quite limited and does not embrace "vocation" in its' true meaning of discerning and following God's Will. Besides marriage, there are Third Orders and Secular Institutes of Consecrated Life - Consecration of Virgins (which is not religious life!). There is also the single state.
Not to start threads dealing with anything but religious life and/or the priesthood is fair enough, which does not mean that other vocations which may come into a discussion and are discussed in a thread are not acceptable. Its not the ruling on this Vocation Forum that I am uneasy about under the instructions from dUSt, it is an implication by calling it "Vocation Station" - plus the assertive and authoritative ruling by dUSt - that religious life and/or priesthood are the only vocations. A forum name change to perhaps "Religious Life and/or Priesthood" or something similar would make things immediately clear.

Edited December 29, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1325120839' post='2358891']
Nunsense, we potential marriage-discerners want a place welcome to topics specifically about marriage. I want to continue posting in the marriage threads that are sitting in VS, but am afraid Dust doesn't want that to continue....I'm hoping for VS to welcome marriage, or for a special sub-place. When it affects someone personally, it puts a new spin on things...
[/quote]

dUSt also made that clear. Post those threads in Open Mic. If the title of the thread is something like Discerning Marriage (or similar), it might even become a 'hot topic', if there are that many people interested in chatting about marriage. If it becomes so hot that it takes up lots of space, maybe then dUSt will think about giving it it's own forum, but why not give it a go for now and see what happens? That doesn't mean you can't post in VS or even comment about marriage here - but just don't START threads about marriage. how is that hard to understand?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1325121804' post='2358919']
Its not the ruling on this Vocation Forum that I am uneasy about under the instructions from dUSt, it is an implication by calling it "Vocation Station" that religious life and/or priesthood are the only vocations. A forum name change to perhaps "Religious Life and/or Priesthood" or something similar would make things immediately clear.
[/quote]

And yet my diocese uses the term Vocation to indicate a call to religious life or the priesthood on their website. When people click on the link, they don't expect to find out information about the 'vocation' of marriage.

I think the name of the forum is perfectly understandable to most Catholics as referring to a Vocation to religious life or the priesthood. The fact that we have discussed marriage on here and know that married life can be considered a vocation, doesn't make the name of the forum incorrect. In fact, it supports dUSt's decision because he is using the term 'Vocation' to mean what the Church means when it puts a link on a website for 'Vocations'.

[Sarah147]

It doesn't feel quite appropriate out there for the whole world to see. Over here in VS, it is more quiet, and given more seriousness and discretion. People that tend to respond over here are more serious about different types of discernment and spirituality and give a different perspective than one would typically get on the newspread of open mic.

[Cherie]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325121855' post='2358921']
how is that hard to understand?
[/quote]

I think those that disagree are just trying to state a perspective that perhaps dUSt has not thought of. Not that it is not understood, but that perhaps dUSt would reconsider.

[Cherie]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325122199' post='2358926']
And yet my diocese uses the term Vocation to indicate a call to religious life or the priesthood on their website. When people click on the link, they don't expect to find out information about the 'vocation' of marriage.
[/quote]

However even in VS there was a pinned "Resources for Marriage." I am not sure when or why it was taken down; but it WAS here for quite a long time. Which seems to add to the notion that marriage would be an acceptable topic for which to have threads begun here.

If dUSt wants to change it, that's his prerogative.

[Lisa]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1325122202' post='2358927']
It doesn't feel quite appropriate out there for the whole world to see. Over here in VS, it is more quiet, and given more seriousness and discretion. People that tend to respond over here are more serious about different types of discernment and spirituality and give a different perspective than one would typically get on the newspread of open mic.
[/quote]

I would like to respectfully remind you that VS is still very much "out there for the whole world to see". In fact, many of us lurked, reading VS threads long before joining when we googled one or more religious orders. Actually, the RSH board is probably the most secret in that it has a password. I've seen that you've successfully introduced several topics over there, and you've gotten great input from out "phatmass mom's group"- and those are the people that probably can give the most input on marriage as a vocation being lived out every day. It does become difficult, however, for our teen discerners who might have dating questions.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1325122339' post='2358931']
However even in VS there was a pinned "Resources for Marriage." I am not sure when or why it was taken down; but it WAS here for quite a long time. Which seems to add to the notion that marriage would be an acceptable topic for which to have threads begun here.

If dUSt wants to change it, that's his prerogative.
[/quote]

This has, I believe, only gone in the last day or so - I remember seeing it when I logged on on my phone as it takes longer to go through so I noticed it more.

[Sarah147]

True, this is public, too. But, the posts can get pretty hairy on the open mic and things get shuffled to the end of the pile.

Yeah, I have posted in RSH, but it still doesn't seem the best place for discerning marriage/courting/etc.

Edited December 29, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[BarbTherese]

The Church in the CCC has a very broad interpretation and understanding of the word "vocation"


[url="http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=vocation&xsubmit=Search&s=SS"][u][size=2][color=#0000ff][size=2][color=#0000ff]http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=vocation&xsubmit=Search&s=SS[/color][/size][/color][/size][/u][/url]

I noticed too that the Resources for Marriage had been taken down and wondered why.

[size=3]My diocese has this entry for "What is a Vocation?"[/size]

[b] [size=3][quote]What is a Vocation?[/size][/b]

[size=3][url="http://www.adelaide.catholic.org.au/sites/VocationsCentre/a-vocation"]http://www.adelaide....ntre/a-vocation[/url][/size]
[b] [size=3]ONE OF THE 'BEST KEPT SECRETS'[/size][/b]




'The dawning of this new century presents us with the challenge of continuing to foster a new (actually very old) understanding of vocation, one that was prevalent in the early Christian community but faded over the centuries. Many of our Catholic adults today remain blissfully unaware, firstly, that they actually have a vocation, and secondly, that they can play a vital role in assisting young people to choose the vocational lifestyle that will help them develop to their fullest potential.

Our English word "vocation" comes from the Latin "vocatio" which means "calling". For the greater part of the 20th century, there was a widely held perception that only priests, religious brothers and sisters had a "vocation", and that their lives were more favoured in God’s eyes than those who did not have a calling. This narrow understanding of "vocation" was reviewed and addressed during the Second Vatican Council, which reinstated the vocational theology of the early Christian community.

Until the early 1990s this was one of the Vatican Council’s "best kept secrets". The secret is now out, and the good news continues to spread. Today growing numbers of people recognise and celebrate that everyone has a vocation.

"Vocation" must be understood in the context of baptism. Our Christian calling is the consequence and the challenge of our baptism. Through baptism, all of us are called by God to become disciples of Jesus, discovering, developing and sharing our gifts and resources with others, as we work together to make a difference in our local and global communities.

God’s call is always an invitation to "Choose Life" (Deut.30.13). God calls most people to "choose life" within the vocation of marriage. Others are called to "choose life"through the single vocation, while others are called to "choose life" as sisters, brothers and priests.'

[i]From Sr Mary Ryan RSJ, Executive Officer, Catholic Vocations Ministry Australia[/i].

[quote]As well as the vocation to priesthood, religious life, marriage and single life, there is also vocation to the diaconate and to lay ecclesial ministry within the Church.[/quote] [/quote]

[AccountDeleted]

I have no idea why dUSt chose to make this decision at this time (yes I do remember seeing the Resources for Marriage thread pinned) but I can understand it a little. I too felt that things were getting a bit skewed here on VS with all the marriage threads and discussion. Incorrect or not, I felt that it was a way for those who had changed their minds about discerning a religious vocation to feel better about themselves by including their new plans in the VS. It is a hard pill for some to swallow that the Church considers a religous vocation a 'higher calling' than the married state - but I think this is simply a matter of pride. In our society, we are always striving to 'be the best', 'to win' and the 'be number one' so to hear that one state might be somehow 'better' (in our minds) than another makes the person who does not choose this state (or can't choose it for good reasons) feel bad about themselves. But I think this is an error in understanding. Higher does not mean better, especially in the terms that our society understands these terms. Is it better for a ballerina to try to be a doctor? I know that analogies can never really work, but for someone called to married life (and many will tell you that they definitely feel that this is what God has called them to) to think that they are somehow 'inferior' because their calling is not 'higher' than another is just a very subtle form of pride. And pride always hurts. The Martins wanted to be called to religious life but God had other plans for them as parents of a saint (and maybe many saints!). And in following their calling, they too became saints.

I don't think anyone should feel bad about not discerning religious life, but they should at least understand that it isn't the same as being called to the married state, as being married is a more 'natural' state than religious life. It may not be 'higher' in the eyes of the Church, but on the other hand, it is considered more necessary, and for that reason, marriage is a sacrament, whereas religious life is a sacramental state. I think we can all accept that being a priest is a higher state than being a husband/father, but when it comes to a nun/religious sister in relation to a wife/mother, we don't like the comparison. But we need to focus on the word 'higher' - not 'better'. Different. In this case, higher is a more spiritual term. At least in my understanding.

Some of us would have loved to have lived married life with all its joys, but for one reason or another that has been denied, or they felt that the calling to religious life had to be answered. My last Prioress had been engaged at the time she felt called to enter Carmel. She used to talk to me about it sometimes, and even after 50 years in Carmel, still felt a pull to that life and said it had been a real sacrifice for her to give up. Discussing marriage is great, but it is not the same as discerning religious life and perhaps needs to take a bit of back seat here in this forum. If it needs more attention, the another forum might be the answer, but I have no idea what that involves on dUSt's part or if he even thinks it is necessary. So I can see why it is being discussed here, but I also agree with dUSt that this is not the place for threads focused on married life. Where it should be done however, I just don't know and I hope this issue gets resolved without causing a lot of pain.

[BarbTherese]

.[quote]the Church considers a religous vocation a 'higher calling' than the married state [/quote]

Theologically speaking in an objective sense, religious life is a higher calling. Celibacy for the sake of The Kingdom is a higher calling objectively speaking theologically.
However, nothing can be higher or better than God's Will for a person by which means He intends to draw the person to holiness and to build up His Church - and this is a subjective theological sense. God also offers all the Graces necessary to live out one's vocation under those two terms: personal holiness, build up His Church.

[quote]somehow 'better' (in our minds) than another makes the person [b]who does not choose [/b]this state (or can't choose it for good reasons) feel bad about themselves[/quote]

It is God who provides the qualities and Graces necessary to live any vocation at all - any call from God whatsoever. It is never we who choose God, but rather God who chooses us "You have not chosen Me, I have chosen you". Why He chooses this person for this and another for that is in the Mystery of God.

Edited December 29, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[faithcecelia]

I guess one way to think of it, if feeling disappointed that the Church considers celibacy 'a higher calling', is that marriage is held in high enough esteem within the Church as to be its own sacrament, whereas religious consecration is 'only' an extention of baptism. They are equally valid without being identical.