the lumberjack Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Oprah is a postmodern, treehugging, good for nothing but the corruption of man(and woman)kind... "search for the answer within yourself" what a load of carp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 3 2004, 09:34 AM'] Oprah is a postmodern, treehugging, good for nothing but the corruption of man(and woman)kind... "search for the answer within yourself" what a load of carp. [/quote] yeah, i can't stand that woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='May 3 2004, 08:12 AM'] ironmonk, i'm gonna have to disagree w/ u brother. you seem to equate self-love with self-centeredness or selfishness, but that's not what self-love [i]truly[/i] is. it will help here to provide my coneptualization of [i]true [/i]self-love: [b]self-love:[/b] when man totally embraces the fact that he is made in the image in likeness of God, that through his baptism he has become a child of God, that b/c he is a child of God and was made by God, he has an inherent dignity as a person that no man, and not even himself, can take away, that he is loved by God for all eternity and that God will never turn his back on him. that is self-love as i see it. and whereas you see "self-love" as inherently self-centered, i see self-love as inherently humble, inherently "others-centered." why? because, when a person finally grasps what it means to be a child of God, when he has self-love as i define it, then he cannot help but be humbled! he is in awe of the love and acceptance he has received by God even though he doesn't deserve it. it likewise compels him to love others as God has loved him. "love one another as i have loved you." yet, we cannot love others until we fully grasp the love that God has for us. i say self-love is recognizing and accepting the love that God has for us: --recognizing, b/c many people don't even know that God loves them, nor the degree to which he loves them. --accepting, b/c there are likewise many people who know of this love of God for his people, but do not accept it. they have been degraded, or have degraded themselves to a point that they truly believe that not even God would embrace them. how can man love others when he doesn't know God's love for himself? put another way: [b]self-centeredness [/b]is looking at one's own depravity and saying, "there is something wrong w/ me. i must increase myself" [b]self-love[/b] is looking at one's own depravity and saying, "there is indeed something wrong w/ me.... but that is ok, b/c God loves me nontheless, and it is my duty to love others just the same." hopefully i have made my point w/o being too repetitive. pax christi, phatcatholic [/quote] [quote]Whether self-love is the source of every sin? Objection 1. It would seem that self-love is not the source of every sin. For that which is good and right in itself is not the proper cause of sin. Now love of self is a good and right thing in itself: wherefore man is commanded to love his neighbor as himself (Lev. 19:18). Therefore self-love cannot be the proper cause of sin. Objection 2. Further, the Apostle says (Rm. 7:8): "Sin taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence"; on which words a gloss says that "the law is good, since by forbidding concupiscence, it forbids all evils," the reason for which is that concupiscence is the cause of every sin. Now concupiscence is a distinct passion from love, as stated above (3, 2; 23, 4). Therefore self-love is not the cause of every sin. Objection 3. Further, Augustine in commenting on Ps. 79:17, "Things set on fire and dug down," says that "every sin is due either to love arousing us to undue ardor or to fear inducing false humility." Therefore self-love is not the only cause of sin. Objection 4. Further, as man sins at times through inordinate love of self, so does he sometimes through inordinate love of his neighbor. Therefore self-love is not the cause of every sin. On the contrary, Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xiv, 28) that "self-love, amounting to contempt of God, builds up the city of Babylon." Now every sin makes man a citizen of Babylon. Therefore self-love is the cause of every sin. I answer that, As stated above (75, 1), the proper and direct cause of sin is to be considered on the part of the adherence to a mutable good; in which respect every sinful act proceeds from inordinate desire for some temporal good. Now the fact that anyone desires a temporal good inordinately, is due to the fact that he loves himself inordinately; for to wish anyone some good is to love him. Therefore it is evident that inordinate love of self is the cause of every sin. Reply to Objection 1. Well ordered self-love, whereby man desires a fitting good for himself, is right and natural; but it is inordinate self-love, leading to contempt of God, that Augustine (De Civ. Dei xiv, 28) reckons to be the cause of sin. Reply to Objection 2. Concupiscence, whereby a man desires good for himself, is reduced to self-love as to its cause, as stated. Reply to Objection 3. Man is said to love both the good he desires for himself, and himself to whom he desires it. Love, in so far as it is directed to the object of desire (e.g. a man is said to love wine or money) admits, as its cause, fear which pertains to avoidance of evil: for every sin arises either from inordinate desire for some good, or from inordinate avoidance of some evil. But each of these is reduced to self-love, since it is through loving himself that man either desires good things, or avoids evil things. Reply to Objection 4. A friend is like another self (Ethic. ix): wherefore the sin which is committed through love for a friend, seems to be committed through self-love. [/quote] I totally agree with PhatCatholic here... but i also agree with IronMonk... there are two types of self-love: 1. Well Ordered self-love 2. Inordinate self-love well ordered love is what PhatCatholic is talking about and it is right and natural whereas inordinate self-love is what IronMonk is talking about which leads to contempt of God thereby causing sin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 this is too good to not add in here...by the way, i'm getting these quotes from NewAdvent.org [quote](1) Love of Self St. Gregory the Great (Hom. XIII in Evang.) objects to the expression "charity towards self", on the plea that charity requires two terms, and St. Augustine (De bono viduitatis, xxi) remarks that no command was needed to make man love himself. Obviously, St. Gregory's objection is purely grammatical; St. Augustine's remark applies to natural self-love. As a matter of fact, the precept of supernatural love of self is not only possible or needed, but also clearly implied in Christ's command to love our neighbour as ourselves. Its obligation, however, bears in a vague manner on the salvation of our soul (Matt., xvi, 26), the acquisition of merits (Matt., vi, 19 sqq.), the Christian use of our body (Rom., vi, 13; 1 Cor., vi, 19; Col., iii, 5). and can hardly be brought down to practical points not already covered by more specific precepts. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 traichuoi..............you have elucidated the fundamental distinction thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 3, 2004 Author Share Posted May 3, 2004 If you notice, I was refering to what psychiatrists and Oprah call self love. When you use a different definition, it's a whole other story. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='May 3 2004, 10:55 AM'] If you notice, I was refering to what psychiatrists and Oprah call self love. When you use a different definition, it's a whole other story. God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 [quote name='ironmonk' date='May 3 2004, 11:55 AM'] If you notice, I was refering to what psychiatrists and Oprah call self love. When you use a different definition, it's a whole other story. God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] Well, I totally agree with you on that. "Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself." It's the greatest commandment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreepyCrawler Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 true. so i agree with phatcatholic, disagree with oprah and lumber (sorry i'm a treehugger but i put God and others and my Church above trees... but then i'm a rabid environmentalist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='May 3 2004, 11:12 AM'] ironmonk, i'm gonna have to disagree w/ u brother. you seem to equate self-love with self-centeredness or selfishness, but that's not what self-love [i]truly[/i] is. it will help here to provide my coneptualization of [i]true [/i]self-love: [b]self-love:[/b] when man totally embraces the fact that he is made in the image in likeness of God, that through his baptism he has become a child of God, that b/c he is a child of God and was made by God, he has an inherent dignity as a person that no man, and not even himself, can take away, that he is loved by God for all eternity and that God will never turn his back on him. that is self-love as i see it. and whereas you see "self-love" as inherently self-centered, i see self-love as inherently humble, inherently "others-centered." why? because, when a person finally grasps what it means to be a child of God, when he has self-love as i define it, then he cannot help but be humbled! he is in awe of the love and acceptance he has received by God even though he doesn't deserve it. it likewise compels him to love others as God has loved him. "love one another as i have loved you." yet, we cannot love others until we fully grasp the love that God has for us. i say self-love is recognizing and accepting the love that God has for us: --recognizing, b/c many people don't even know that God loves them, nor the degree to which he loves them. --accepting, b/c there are likewise many people who know of this love of God for his people, but do not accept it. they have been degraded, or have degraded themselves to a point that they truly believe that not even God would embrace them. how can man love others when he doesn't know God's love for himself? put another way: [b]self-centeredness [/b]is looking at one's own depravity and saying, "there is something wrong w/ me. i must increase myself" [b]self-love[/b] is looking at one's own depravity and saying, "there is indeed something wrong w/ me.... but that is ok, b/c God loves me nontheless, and it is my duty to love others just the same." hopefully i have made my point w/o being too repetitive. pax christi, phatcatholic [/quote] Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsFrozen Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Ironmonk, I agree with you. Oprah's, and many other feminists', idea to stop putting ourselves last is selfish. The Bible teaches us to put ourselves last. However, I'm going to look at it at a different angle for a moment. I used to struggle with major self-esteem issues and a lack of confidence. It was hard for me to show love to others, especially my husband. Since I have become a Christian, I no longer struggle with these problems, and my relationship with my husband could not be better. I want to make things great for him more now than I ever did. So if I look at it from that angle, then yes, loving myself as a child of God has helped me to love others. Unfortunately, I believe that the real message behind Oprah's idea is probably a selfish love, such as deserving and expecting time for yourself, to be able to do the things you want, putting your needs first, etc. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traichuoi Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 wow...I forgot about this...great posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 Awesome thread. We have to be careful about what we say to whom about this topic. That is for sure. That distinction of good/bad "self-love" is not obvious all the time. I have come away with a bad impression from many things I have heard/read about this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJRod55 Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 'Self Love' or 'Self Adoration' is a compulsive disorder for some. I have seen quite a few teenagers interestingly enough boys as well as girls who go through a stage where they are totally obsessed with their own appearance to the point of self adoration. Often times they are totally unaware of the depth of their 'interest' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Could it be said that we cannot truly love until we understand the love that God has for His children including us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now