'harry Potter And Yoga Are Evil', Says Catholic Church Exorcis

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1323913572' post='2351445']
Ive read some of the Harry Potter books and I can see how they may lead people, especially kids who are the main audience, into possibly trying to cast spells etc themselves and THAT is where it gets dangerous. Reading John of the cross or Teresa of Avila pwns Potter any day and in every way.

As for Yoga, the poses are positions of worship of other gods whether people believe in them or not. The Sign of the Cross is a religious expression whether or not the person doing it believes. You want to stretch? Take from Pilates.

The greatest trick of the devil is to convince us he doesnt exist, however, as it says in the Bible Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

[b] [i]shrewd[/i]/SHro͞od/[/b]
Adjective: [list]
[*]Having or showing sharp powers of judgment; astute.
[/list]
[/quote]


Wow - this is the single best argument I've heard from this side. The truth is, it's [i]not[/i] [i]all[/i] about intent. Sure, intent counts for a lot, but a sin is still a sin even if the person didn't intend to sin. Likewise, dabbling with evil things is still dabbling with evil things, even if the person didn't intend to do so.

I had never thought of yoga from that angle, but you've convinced me now - yoga is bad, no matter if people are getting into the spiritual side or not. The poses are still poses of worship to false gods, which breaks the very 1st commandment of God.

It's not all about intent.

[Nihil Obstat]

Fr. Amorth is rather extreme on the subject, and yes, I'm extremely familiar with his writing. His books are among my favourites.
Whether or not he does so consciously, what he's doing is providing an extreme opinion that reminds those on more moderate positions to be wary, and he does so rightly. There are things to be wary of, both in yoga and in Harry Potter. However we're not bound to reject every aspect of them on his word.

[Archaeology cat]

Here's a question: did those positions or whatnot exist prior to the philosophical framework that has grown around them? I know there's some question about exactly when yoga arose, with some possible depictions of poses quite early but descriptions of meditative techniques occurring later. I don't know much more than that, but it strikes me as being possible that the positions could've been devoid of any spiritual side at first, and that such came later. I honestly do not know. I do know that the stretches found in yoga and Pilates help my back quite a bit. Yes, I know ends don't justify means, but some of the positions are ones that one might naturally assume in stretching certain areas, which to me could indicate that associating said positions with Hindu deities was a misuse of something already occurring. I don't know, just musing.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1323996545' post='2351867']
Here's a question: did those positions or whatnot exist prior to the philosophical framework that has grown around them? I know there's some question about exactly when yoga arose, with some possible depictions of poses quite early but descriptions of meditative techniques occurring later. I don't know much more than that, but it strikes me as being possible that the positions could've been devoid of any spiritual side at first, and that such came later. I honestly do not know. I do know that the stretches found in yoga and Pilates help my back quite a bit. Yes, I know ends don't justify means, but some of the positions are ones that one might naturally assume in stretching certain areas, which to me could indicate that associating said positions with Hindu deities was a misuse of something already occurring. I don't know, just musing.
[/quote]
I think there's a good discussion to be had with the yoga specifically. My line of reasoning is that it's entirely possible, in fact likely, that the exact same poses originated in other cultures with absolutely no religious aspect, and with no exposure to yoga. In that case then, you can make all the arguments you want about the yoga poses objectively being a religious act, but if independently you have those same poses existing for exercise without a religious aspect, then the argument seems to... at least not be so open and shut anymore. You could have someone doing the *exact* same poses, even in the same order, and say "I'm doing this stretching regimen developed in Germany in the mid 1500s for soldiers (or whatever, be creative), and who's to say that's wrong? Or "I'm doing these several stretches made popular in the 1950s, followed by this pose from [blah blah blah]", and a different person doing the same stretches could say he's doing yoga.

So I definitely think there's a ton of grey area. I don't think you can necessarily condemn 'yoga' as a series of stretches simply because it was used as part of Hindu meditation at one point in time.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324000924' post='2351892']
I think there's a good discussion to be had with the yoga specifically. My line of reasoning is that it's entirely possible, in fact likely, that the exact same poses originated in other cultures with absolutely no religious aspect, and with no exposure to yoga. In that case then, you can make all the arguments you want about the yoga poses objectively being a religious act, but if independently you have those same poses existing for exercise without a religious aspect, then the argument seems to... at least not be so open and shut anymore. You could have someone doing the *exact* same poses, even in the same order, and say "I'm doing this stretching regimen developed in Germany in the mid 1500s for soldiers (or whatever, be creative), and who's to say that's wrong? Or "I'm doing these several stretches made popular in the 1950s, followed by this pose from [blah blah blah]", and a different person doing the same stretches could say he's doing yoga.

So I definitely think there's a ton of grey area. I don't think you can necessarily condemn 'yoga' as a series of stretches simply because it was used as part of Hindu meditation at one point in time.
[/quote]


I don't know if this is more of an issue for cradle Catholics than it is for converts but speaking for myself, I was an agnostic with no religious beliefs when I did yoga, and I never felt any compulsion to worship any Hindu gods while doing the exercises. I used them for physical strength, health and flexibility. Sometimes I wonder if people make too much of a big deal about the origin of yoga. Yoga certainly did not prevent me from becoming a Catholic and I still use some of the stretches today combined with other personal methods of exercise. Anything can be carried to extreme but common sense should show one when they are stepping over the line.

[Jesus_lol]

it kind of like a Jewish guy worrying about kneeling because catholics do that to pray

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324000924' post='2351892']
I think there's a good discussion to be had with the yoga specifically. My line of reasoning is that it's entirely possible, in fact likely, that the exact same poses originated in other cultures with absolutely no religious aspect, and with no exposure to yoga. In that case then, you can make all the arguments you want about the yoga poses objectively being a religious act, but if independently you have those same poses existing for exercise without a religious aspect, then the argument seems to... at least not be so open and shut anymore. You could have someone doing the *exact* same poses, even in the same order, and say "I'm doing this stretching regimen developed in Germany in the mid 1500s for soldiers (or whatever, be creative), and who's to say that's wrong? Or "I'm doing these several stretches made popular in the 1950s, followed by this pose from [blah blah blah]", and a different person doing the same stretches could say he's doing yoga.

So I definitely think there's a ton of grey area. I don't think you can necessarily condemn 'yoga' as a series of stretches simply because it was used as part of Hindu meditation at one point in time.[/quote]Agreed. For quite a while, the prevailing theory in archaeology was one of diffusion of ideas, the idea being that techniques and practices couldn't develop independently, but had to be transmitted from one to another. While you sometimes still see this view, it isn't really taken as seriously now. And even if one shows that a certain practice arose after exposure to another culture, one must also see if it kept the same use and meaning.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1324018441' post='2352094']
it kind of like a Jewish guy worrying about kneeling because catholics do that to pray
[/quote]

Yeah, yoga can be more than just physical but it doesn't have to be.

[dominicansoul]

i'm pretty sure Fr. Amorth isn't speaking lightly, nor is he "going to extremes" on this subject. He's speaking from experience. He's performed thousands of exorcisms and he knows what he's talking about. I'm positive he's met more than just a few people who have opened doors to demons and evil spirits through these means.


"Keep sober and alert, because your enemy the devil is on the prowl like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour." -1 Peter 5



(...just wondering... how many people can't live without these measly things? are they really all that important? just something to think about...)

[Malajacafa]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1323902517' post='2351359']


I just got this from Catholic Answers forums.




I had heard that yoga was okay as long as you didn't practice the spiritual aspect of it. Any thoughts?
[/quote]
That's interesting. Does Father go into any detail as to why he believes this?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1324053311' post='2352291']
i'm pretty sure Fr. Amorth isn't speaking lightly, nor is he "going to extremes" on this subject. He's speaking from experience. He's performed thousands of exorcisms and he knows what he's talking about. I'm positive he's met more than just a few people who have opened doors to demons and evil spirits through these means.


"Keep sober and alert, because your enemy the devil is on the prowl like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour." -1 Peter 5



(...just wondering... how many people can't live without these measly things? are they really all that important? just something to think about...)
[/quote]
As I said, I'm extremely familiar with Fr. Amorth's views on things. I do think that to reject Harry Potter 100% is somewhat extreme. I do not think that it's necessary. It's his prerogative, and absolutely he's working to save souls. For some people his advice will be helpful. But it need not be applied to everybody in the same way.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1324063204' post='2352338']
As I said, I'm extremely familiar with Fr. Amorth's views on things. I do think that to reject Harry Potter 100% is somewhat extreme. I do not think that it's necessary. It's his prerogative, and absolutely he's working to save souls. For some people his advice will be helpful. But it need not be applied to everybody in the same way.
[/quote]

i'm familiar with his views as well. I am pretty sure his warning of potter and yoga is in the same vein of the warning we receive in Holy Scripture over money...

"Money is the root of all evil," but not everyone who has money is evil..., or comes under the influence of the devil. I don't think there is a human being in the world who avoids money, we need it to live in this world, so Scripture isn't saying to reject money.... at the same time...Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of Heaven," and, "you cannot serve two masters, God and mammon." I think it is in this same vein that Father is telling us, in very clear language that he has witnessed enough to believe these two mediums have the power to sway people and bring them under diabolical influence, just as Jesus warned us about the dangers of our possessions and wealth. It is a strong warning and one shouldn't take it lightly. I dont' think this warning is just for the weak and feeble minded amongst us, but even those of us who feel we have a pretty good handle on our Faith and don't need to pay any attention to this and carry on enjoying the books and the yoga.. I think we need to be constantly aware of the diabolical influences and just how easy satan makes it to get involved in darker spirits without even realizing it...

That is all I'm saying...

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1324065101' post='2352349']

i'm familiar with his views as well. I am pretty sure his warning of potter and yoga is in the same vein of the warning we receive in Holy Scripture over money...

"Money is the root of all evil," but not everyone who has money is evil..., or comes under the influence of the devil. I don't think there is a human being in the world who avoids money, we need it to live in this world, so Scripture isn't saying to reject money.... at the same time...Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of Heaven," and, "you cannot serve two masters, God and mammon." I think it is in this same vein that Father is telling us, in very clear language that he has witnessed enough to believe these two mediums have the power to sway people and bring them under diabolical influence, just as Jesus warned us about the dangers of our possessions and wealth. It is a strong warning and one shouldn't take it lightly. I dont' think this warning is just for the weak and feeble minded amongst us, but even those of us who feel we have a pretty good handle on our Faith and don't need to pay any attention to this and carry on enjoying the books and the yoga.. I think we need to be constantly aware of the diabolical influences and just how easy satan makes it to get involved in darker spirits without even realizing it...

That is all I'm saying...
[/quote]
That's what we should take away from what Fr. Amorth is saying, but I think it's relatively clear from his statements over the years that he himself is saying that Harry Potter has no redeeming qualities and should be outright rejected by Catholics.

[Lil Red]

i think that scrupulous people should avoid Fr. Amorth.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1324069250' post='2352369']
i think that scrupulous people should avoid Fr. Amorth.
[/quote]
That would often be wise advice.