How Many Of Us Want A Religion That Teaches Moral Limitations?

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='MarysLittleFlower' timestamp='1323714300' post='2349821']
I think that moral limitations are important and they are not "limitations" really, they're more - how to find TRUE freedom.... sin is not freedom at all, though it might seem that way.
[/quote]

Great point.

Back to the original convo, the priests at my parish talk about contraception, homosexuality, fornication and all the other hot-button issues quite frequently. They are out there.

And SCG I know you have hangups about the present state of the church, but please follow others' suggestions to focus more on yourself and your own pursuit of holiness.

God bless

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1323686765' post='2349702']

Ok, but how do you reconcile SCG's position on annulments with the Catholic teaching?
Why a person who got an annulment and remarried should be seen with prejudice when receives Communmion?
This happens, and I've seen it. And the paradox is that this kind of critics mainly comes from people who don't consider themsleves in line with the Catholic Church, and from people who are divorced and judge annulments as a "priviliege" for catholics. But the simple fact is that there are marriages who are really invalid, and marriages which aren't. Those who think their marriage may be invalid may ask for annulment, there is no privilege for catholics rather than non-catholics.
I understand the concerns of giving too many annulments (but I am firmly persuaded that the main problem is not giving annulments, but letting to celebrate too many marriages that are very week from their origin), but at this point we return to the starting post: there are moral rules and limitations, but we could never know exactly and in detail who is living these rules and who is not, because we could not know many elements to judge.
So I judge the persons basically for what they preach (if they clairly say they are pro-abortion, pro communion to divorced and remarried people etc) and not for how I think they are living.
[/quote]
It's abundantly obvious that I don't agree with Richard's hang-ups on annulments. If I recall correctly I've discussed it with him in the past as well.

I think most, probably all Catholics here on PM would agree that one of two things is happening. Either too many invalid marriages are being performed for couples, or the tribunals are giving out way too many annulments. Either way, somebody is dropping the ball big time in the US and Canada.
For someone weak in their faith, this is a very difficult thing to deal with. It's scandalous.

[Papist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323717152' post='2349845']
It's abundantly obvious that I don't agree with Richard's hang-ups on annulments. If I recall correctly I've discussed it with him in the past as well.

I think most, probably all Catholics here on PM would agree that one of two things is happening. Either too many invalid marriages are being performed for couples, or the tribunals are giving out way too many annulments. Either way, somebody is dropping the ball big time in the US and Canada.
For someone weak in their faith, this is a very difficult thing to deal with. It's scandalous.
[/quote]
Or too many couples are not completely honest with the Church and/or themselves during marriage prep. I know numerous couples that never discussed religion/faith until they had a child, which includes my brother.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Papist

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323721197' post='2349874']
Or too many couples are not completely honest with the Church and/or themselves during marriage prep. I know numerous couples that never discussed religion/faith until they had a child, which includes my brother.
[/quote]
So then isn't the priest dropping the ball there in agreeing to marry them? It's his job to make sure that's not the case. If a couple goes into marriage prep specifically intending to deceive the priest and con him into performing the wedding then that's one thing, but for the average, lazy cultural Catholics who are kist doing it because they want their ceremony in their favourite church...?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323695975' post='2349721']
That's akin to saying the old Jesus Christ. That mister, is most offensive.
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure what he meant was the traditional strict values compared to over lenient modern liberal ones. But things do change. After Jesus gave his law on divorce the Apostles questioned him on why Moses allowed it. Jesus replied that it was because of their hardness of heart. God doesn't change but humans do and for the better I hope. I hope the current overthrow of evil dictators is a move forward in human evolution.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1323675568' post='2349688']

But if we look to the Church only as a teacher of moral lessons, then we miss the main point.
[/quote]
I don't think God has endowed the Church with any above normal ability to make judgements. As Aloysius writes it can only enforce a law when there is no question whatsoever, otherwise we'll end up burning witches. I gave an example where it went wrong with[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/117443-how-many-of-us-want-a-religion-that-teaches-moral-limitations/page__view__findpost__p__2349447"] the lady I wrote about.[/url] I didn't fully understand her story, I just assume that either her family or her local Church had told her not to take communion as a result of her decision to file for civil divorce against their wishes. As some pointed out she was entitled to receive Eucharist since she had not remarried (I gathered) and had been an innocent victim.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Papist]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323721938' post='2349881']
So then isn't the priest dropping the ball there in agreeing to marry them? It's his job to make sure that's not the case. If a couple goes into marriage prep specifically intending to deceive the priest and con him into performing the wedding then that's one thing, but for the average, lazy cultural Catholics who are kist doing it because they want their ceremony in their favourite church...?
[/quote]
It is not for me to say who is dropping the ball. But, I'd be naive to think there not priests out there that don't have the courage to deny marriages, or worse that don't follow Church's teachings. Let's pray for them.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Papist

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323725656' post='2349919']
It is not for me to say who is dropping the ball. But, I'd be naive to think there not priests out there that don't have the courage to deny marriages, or worse that don't follow Church's teachings. Let's pray for them.
[/quote]
Indeed.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323721938' post='2349881']
So then isn't the priest dropping the ball there in agreeing to marry them? It's his job to make sure that's not the case. If a couple goes into marriage prep specifically intending to deceive the priest and con him into performing the wedding then that's one thing, but for the average, lazy cultural Catholics who are kist doing it because they want their ceremony in their favourite church...?
[/quote]
Just out of interest a young Malaysian couple I know said they were told by the priest in Malaysia that they would have to undergo a marriage training course to be married in the Catholic Church. Since they live and work in Oz and would not be able to attend, they approached the Priest here and was told the same thing. Apparently moves ARE being undertaken to reduce the need for annulments.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1323741154' post='2350097']
Just out of interest a young Malaysian couple I know said they were told by the priest in Malaysia that they would have to undergo a marriage training course to be married in the Catholic Church. Since they live and work in Oz and would not be able to attend, they approached the Priest here and was told the same thing. Apparently moves ARE being undertaken to reduce the need for annulments.
[/quote]
Marriage prep in and of itself isn't necessary for marriage.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323717152' post='2349845']
It's abundantly obvious that I don't agree with Richard's hang-ups on annulments. If I recall correctly I've discussed it with him in the past as well.

I think most, probably all Catholics here on PM would agree that one of two things is happening. Either too many invalid marriages are being performed for couples, or the tribunals are giving out way too many annulments. Either way, somebody is dropping the ball big time in the US and Canada.
For someone weak in their faith, this is a very difficult thing to deal with. It's scandalous.
[/quote]

Having read Rich's other posts regarding annulments, I know he has mentioned the "loose canon" regarding "maturity". I can understand his point, since that can be a very subjective standard that can be interpreted to anyone's whims and thus abused.

I think maybe what he is seeking is clarity in answers? Believe me, being in Rich's age demographic I can testify that there was a period during the catechical "void" where seeking a straight answer was a cause for frustration or earned you derision.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1323741154' post='2350097']
Since they live and work in Oz and would not be able to attend, they approached the Priest here and was told the same thing. Apparently moves ARE being undertaken to reduce the need for annulments.
[/quote]

Oh, we're off to see the bishop! The wonderful bishop of Oz!

[organwerke]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1323725656' post='2349919']
It is not for me to say who is dropping the ball. But, I'd be naive to think there not priests out there that don't have the courage to deny marriages, or worse that don't follow Church's teachings. Let's pray for them.
[/quote]

I agree, but we must be sincere too: if a priest denies a marriage, then the couple looks for another...
Who really follows a priest's decision/advices nowadays?
Certainly not those who want to celebrate their marriage in the church for the sake of a beautiful feast!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1323766329' post='2350276']

I agree, but we must be sincere too: if a priest denies a marriage, then the couple looks for another...
Who really follows a priest's decision/advices nowadays?
Certainly not those who want to celebrate their marriage in the church for the sake of a beautiful feast!
[/quote]


This is such a valid point. It isn't only weddings though. I have seen several Baptisms in our church for babies of families who never seem to come any other time except for the Baptism. If a priest denies someone what they want these days, and they are not regular church goers, they are just going to keep trying until they find a priest who will do what they want.

Edited December 13, 2011 by nunsense

[Jaime]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1323768557' post='2350285']


This is such a valid point. It isn't only weddings though. I have seen several Baptisms in our church for babies of families who never seem to come any other time except for the Baptism. If a priest denies someone what they want these days, and they are not regular church goers, they are just going to keep trying until they find a priest who will do what they want.
[/quote]


I have never understood the reason why a priest would deny baptism to a child. A wedding? Absolutely. Confirmation? Sure. I do not get denying anyone baptism