A Memo From Obama

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[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1323226693' post='2346091']


Implying that all LGBT people feel this way is ridiculous. The campaign is misguided, yes, but I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.
[/quote]
It's a fake ad by a right-wing blog

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[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323197139' post='2345609']

I think there are already countries like that

, and if we continue electing those who have no clue what morality is, we're heading in that direction...

also, hasan, chill out dude, take a few breaths and re-read my first sentence...[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to chill out. I wish every single person who follows your line of thinking had to temporarily live under exactly the same sort of regime, applied the Christians, under which you want to place homosexuals. Maybe if Christians in this country faced some actual systematic discrimination and persecution (I'm not talking about your co-worker thinking that your beliefs are silly, that's part of living in a free society, I mean real live, cops busting into Churches and dragging off Christians persecution) then they would think twice before attempting to discriminate against other people.



[QUOTE]don't get so emotional... isn't that what you always complain about, that people judge things too quickly on their emotions?[/QUOTE]

I complain about people who substitute positions held rationally for those held emotionally. My support for gays rights is rationally founded.


[QUOTE](besides, everything you described...how do you know I've never experienced all that? I grew up in white supremacist texas... i witnessed many things and endured pure hatred...[/QUOTE]

Then double shame on you.

[QUOTE]...not to mention I'm Catholic, so, I know what it feels like for the entire world to hate you....)[/QUOTE]

This is utter the essence of cow. The whole world does not hate Catholics. A significant portion of the world is Catholic.


[QUOTE]I tend to believe this administration could care less for anyone unless it meant a vote for them... why am I so cynical about them? well, the fact that it continues to give power and momentum to a violent and deadly agenda against the unborn, for one thing... another is, that obama desperately needs something to boosts his ratings... I believe this is not so much a memo to stop violence against homosexuals than it is to pander the radical homosexual vote...

again, i reiterate, this administration has no clue what "human rights" are....[/QUOTE]

Yeah. That radical homosexual agenda that doesn't want government violence visited on homosexuals. What'll they want next?

[QUOTE]and your posts is wrong about everythign about me... i do not have any sick compulsions to deny the rights of anyone... you are so a drama queen
[/quote]


Yeah. You do. You have that compulsion and a martyr complex. See this and your initial post.

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[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1323206905' post='2345742']

See that's where the mistake is - targeting the Catholic countries. Even though the Church recognizes no fundamental right to a homosexual relationship as it is immoral, it's the Islamic one's that they ought to be concerned with. President Admadinejad wasn't joking when he said "our country does not have homosexuals". He meant it when he said the penalty was death. That is unjust discrimination Catholics would agree are wrong. As long as we are busy attacking Catholics though, we can bury our head in the sand and ignore the spread of Islamic law and communist rule.
[/quote]

One, no you wouldn't. Sodomy and living a homosexual lifestyle were sins punishable by death when the Church was in power. The Church became accommodating and merciful after it lost it's power and much of its influence. The Church has made some positive statements about being merciful to gays now, and I'm not saying that the individuals in the Church who made those statements were insincere, but as an institution your Church has become accommodating and merciful only after it lost it's temporal power. Back in the day your Church was just as barbarous as Iran. And Iran is barbarous Speaking of the tendency of religious government to forget about their profession of tolerance once they actually get power...Do know who else was a pretty accommodating guy once upon a time? Ayatollah Khomeini. When he was living in Paris before the Shah got the boot he insisted that Islam recognized the inherent dignity of each human person, just like the Church does now, he insisted that he believed that even Marxists would have their rights recognized under his government. Funny how that tolerance didn't last once he got power and funny how that tolerance was only discovered when your Church lost power, huh?

[dominicansoul]

I understand your passion over this subject, hasan, but it is ill-directed.

In truth, internationally, Christians are MURDERED in the thousands for their beliefs. We don't even know how many die in China every year...

I suggest you actually read the memo. Who in the Obama administration will define "persecution?" Your posts actually help my point. The way you have responded to my concerns is pretty much what I'm afraid will happen when US officials encounter a homily at a religious service in some country somewhere, where a preacher or minister or priest will mention the abomination of homosexual acts. Will the obama administration immediately label that as "homophobia" or "hatred and persecution" of homosexuals? I bet they will. I can imagine all sorts of irrational accusations will fly against anyone with even a remote expression of being against homosexual sin...

"Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." This is Christian belief. You and the obama administration cannot force any Christian to change that truth. I'm sorry if you perceive this as hatred and bigotry. It isn't. Jesus Christ is LOVE and He didn't come into the world to destroy men, but to save them. He was hated and brutally murdered for preaching Truth.

My whole point of this thread is to express the concern that the protection of one group (homosexuals) will bring about the persecution of another (Christians.) This is already happening in countries, and it shouldn't, because that is not just.

Also, get into the habit of looking at the Church today, not at the sins of our past. Pope John Paul, on behalf of all of us asked for forgiveness. Leaders of other religions accepted his apology. It would be nice if you did, too...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323305225' post='2346954']
I was reading something on Tumblr today and noticed that even a lot of "pro-gay rights" people are against what's being said in this memo. Granted, it's because they think Obama needs to do more for their movement in the country before looking abroad. But it shows that even "pro-gay rights" people are recognizing that this is just a talking point for his stump speeches in the coming months.
[/quote]

yeah, I was thinking that maybe obama sees the writing on the wall, and is going to be doing alot of these kinds of things toward the end of his term...

Edited December 8, 2011 by dominicansoul

[Lil Red]

moving to debate table.

[XIX]

Hasan,

I want to alert you to how hard it is to take you seriously, when you imply that Christians are not persecuted. That is a plainly inaccurate claim. Granted, we are not being murdered for our faith in the US, but we would be in other countries.

People here are labeled as bigots for holding a conservative position on homosexuality. People literally argue under the presupposition that marriage is a basic right for all people. You may disagree that this counts as "persecution." Having your character slimed is nothing compared to having your head removed. I get that. But you may not say, "Yeah. You do. You have that (sick) compulsion and a martyr complex. See your original post."

Regardless, the larger point is that Christians face persecution in parts of the world.

Nobody will listen to you if you continue to bring this attitude onto the internet. I'm not just talking about Phatmass. I'm talking about anyone who sees your judgmental, unprovable claims about another person's character. There is nothing in her original post indicating that she has any sick compulsions or a martyr complex.

Edited December 9, 2011 by XIX

[Amppax]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323217671' post='2345831']
I read an article in [i]The Wanderer[/i] (unfortunately, not available online) specifically detailing the U.S. government's efforts to undermine Catholic Poland's laws and attitudes regarding homosexuality. It was truly sickening (the government's actions, that is).

Think I'll start trying to learn Polish. They seem like the only Western nation that still retains some modicum of sanity.
[/quote]

I think you would like Hungary's constitution. It's pretty ballin'.

[url="http://faithandheritage.com/2011/04/hungarys-christian-constitution/"]http://faithandheritage.com/2011/04/hungarys-christian-constitution/[/url]

Sidenote, the cite is a little wack imo, but Hungary's constitution is, again, ballin'.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1323357023' post='2347302']

I think part of the reason for that is that people hate being told what to do. Catholic freedom is so different than the secular notion of freedom.
[/quote]

yes yes yes.

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1323369715' post='2347445']

Sodomy and [b]living a homosexual lifestyle[/b] were sins punishable by death when the Church was in power.
[/quote]

a bit of topic, but I think this is an anachronistic interpretation of history. Sodomy and other deviant sexual acts have been around for a long time (often not connected to love but more to social/power structures), but this idea of a homosexual lifestyle and sexual orientation as a part of one's identity is a really new concept probably appearing first about a century ago. You can't say the church persecuted something that didn't exist at the time, unless you're referring to a time in the past century or so where the church carried out violence against such people, but I think you were digging back farther into history correct?

I think we need to challenge the idea of sexual-orientation being part of one's identity. Cause yeah it does sound shiitake mushroom when the big bad church is persecuting people "for who they are" or "for who they love" but is that what we're [i]really[/i] doing? We're not trying to attack the identity of gay people because I believe that being gay, straight, bi or whatever is not a fixed and essential part of who anyone is.

[Nihil Obstat]

As Apo is rightly quick to point out, a person cannot [i]be[/i] homosexual. They may identify that way, but that isn't a part of who they are as a human being. It is a disordered inclination.
He says it much better than I do though.

[Kia ora]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1323410335' post='2347809']We're not trying to attack the identity of gay people because I believe that being gay, straight, bi or whatever is not a fixed and essential part of who anyone is.
[/quote]Does that also apply to gender do you think?

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1323475050' post='2348277']
Does that also apply to gender do you think?
[/quote]

No. But I do think the prescribed gender roles in a given culture is not something that is authentic female spirituality. Ugh, that's not worded too great but I hope it makes sense

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[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323410810' post='2347814']
As Apo is rightly quick to point out, a person cannot [i]be[/i] homosexual. They may identify that way, but that isn't a part of who they are as a human being. It is a disordered inclination.
He says it much better than I do though.
[/quote]


I would say the same thing about religious affiliation. I think that sexuality is much more central to an individuals identity than religious affiliation in that human being will always have a sexual identity while it is only by happen stance, where and when you happened to be born, that you have any sort of religious identity. Sexuality is a fixed part of any human being while religion is an adopted one.

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[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323372692' post='2347473']
I understand your passion over this subject, hasan, but it is ill-directed.

In truth, internationally, Christians are MURDERED in the thousands for their beliefs. We don't even know how many die in China every year...[/QUOTE]

I am talking about Christians in America. I think that is clear from the context and the descriptors that I used.

[QUOTE]I suggest you actually read the memo. Who in the Obama administration will define "persecution?" Your posts actually help my point. The way you have responded to my concerns is pretty much what I'm afraid will happen when US officials encounter a homily at a religious service in some country somewhere, where a preacher or minister or priest will mention the abomination of homosexual acts. Will the obama administration immediately label that as "homophobia" or "hatred and persecution" of homosexuals? I bet they will. I can imagine all sorts of irrational accusations will fly against anyone with even a remote expression of being against homosexual sin...[/QUOTE]

The memo, as I read it, was confined to government actions. As it should be. You have a right in America to teach that homosexuality is a sin. What you all want in addition to that, however, is the utilize the government to force your personal religious views down the throats of others.

[QUOTE]"Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." [u][i][b]This is Christian belief.[/b][/i][/u] You and the obama administration cannot force any Christian to change that truth. I'm sorry if you perceive this as hatred and bigotry. It isn't. Jesus Christ is LOVE and He didn't come into the world to destroy men, but to save them. He was hated and brutally murdered for preaching Truth.[/QUOTE]

That's right. It is a Christian belief. I have on a number of occasional made very public challenges for phatmass' best and brightest to come forward with some sort of proof either homosexuality is wrong or that Christianity is true and we can therefore infer homosexuality is wrong from the proven truth of Christianity. All such challenges have been met with very anemic responses. And that's fine. You have a right to believe things on faith. What you don't have a right to do is pretend that these collections of beliefs are proven facts and attempt to bully individuals through the force of law to conform to your faith based beliefs.

[QUOTE]My whole point of this thread is to express the concern that the protection of one group (homosexuals) will bring about the persecution of another (Christians.) This is already happening in countries, and it shouldn't, because that is not just.[/QUOTE]

That's right. It shouldn't. I hope countries like Canada learn to stop babying their citizens with their stupid human rights councils. I also hope that Christians who have to live with such non-sense come out with a healthier respect for the power of the state and why those powers should be used intelligently and conservatively and not to browbeat your fellow citizens into thinkiing and acting like you think they should.

[QUOTE]Also, get into the habit of looking at the Church today, not at the sins of our past. Pope John Paul, on behalf of all of us asked for forgiveness. Leaders of other religions accepted his apology. It would be nice if you did, too...
[/quote]

Pope John Paul's anemic apologies for things like Galileo doesn't change the fact of what the Church did while in power and what followers of the Church still do today whenever they have the option of utilizing state power to force individuals to comply with their faith based wishes.

[Socrates]