Lil Red Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323638248' post='2349267']My beef is with the "progressive" idea that society and the Church are just constantly getting better and better all the time, and that whatever is latest in time necessarily is wiser and and more moral then what preceded it, and that two centuries of Church teaching can be lightly disregarded merely for being old.[/quote] agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
organwerke Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The reason for I am practically against death punishment it is because it is administrated by human justice systems which are always imperfect and often unjust as DS shows at post 92. But in theory I find myself very much for it. Maybe I am too cinical, because I've become this way very latelly, but I've seen too many times that the laws seem to protect much more the criminals than the innocents (at least where I live) and it's a shame in my opinion. I also recall that st, Therese of Lisieux prayed for a man who was put to death: he converted just before being executed (he kissed the crucifix) and I see how the important thing is that our soul is saved, not our life, and this is what st. prayed for. Anyway I think that people who are proven guilty with an absolute certainty shouldn't be executed many years after the crime they committed, especially if they have shown that they are really changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323639810' post='2349283'] Justice cannot be measured by statistical figures. Someone's life is taken away forever, and from those of his/her loved ones, or one's innocence is lost and horribly scarred forever, never to be taken back,all because of one's choice to murder or rape. While the murder or rapist gets nothing more than a few years at a luxury summer camp (with rooms nicer than any I lived in) complete with ski and horseback trips, all at the expense of law-abiding tax-payers. [/quote] while i am not completely on board with Norway's system (murder and rape deserve both rehabilitation if possible AND punishment) i think they are working in the right direction to focus on rehabilitation over just punishment. There is a reason why "eye for an eye" is incomplete, and vengeance taught against by the church, and most other religions. America's system (and what Harper wants to put in canada) are fundamentally flawed. We generally consider rape to be an acceptable and expected part of punishment, and there is no way the prison system does anything other than make criminals harder and more desperate. And the concept of "paying your debt to society and then being able to continue in life" is broken, with how difficult it is to get a job better than washing dishes with a felony record (which doesnt necessarily mean a violent crime). We pay lipservice to rehabilitation here, but really once you are touched by the prison system its all over. . [quote] Singapore also has very low crime rates, yet has a justice systems most Americans find very harsh, if all we're interested in is "results." [/quote] well, that is sort of results in deterring crime, not much in the way of fixing criminals, unless you consider the word "fixing" like in a veterinary context. [quote] And if I did, I should be punished accordingly. Treating me as a mindless animal not responsible for my own evil actions is in fact more degrading and insulting than awarding me justice for crimes. (I believe G.K. Chesterton said something relevant along those lines.) [/quote] Good response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323639810' post='2349283'] Justice cannot be measured by statistical figures. Someone's life is taken away forever, and from those of his/her loved ones, or one's innocence is lost and horribly scarred forever, never to be taken back,all because of one's choice to murder or rape. While the murder or rapist gets nothing more than a few years at a luxury summer camp (with rooms nicer than any I lived in) complete with ski and horseback trips, all at the expense of law-abiding tax-payers. A blatant slap on the face of justice. [/quote] Fine. I don't agree with Norway's system completely, but what you have is criminals being rehabilitated and being turned into productive members of society. That wasn't even really the point of my initial post, which you made a ridiculous caricature of. Prisoners, as j-lol mentioned not all of which are violent criminals, are treated terribly. Has the horrible treatment of felons deterred crime at all? I don't think it does, and I don't think committing crime means your human rights are null and void. I thought vengeance is the Lord's? [quote]Yeah, yeah. We're all just products of our environment and not moral agents responsible for our own actions. [/quote] TOTALLY lol. You don't really hear/see what people say do you? [quote] But I suppose those responsible for the Holocaust of the Jews merely needed more hugz.[/quote] YES. And some more cowbell. Can't forget the cowbell. [quote]I pray one day I can be half as holy as you, and have your morally superior tolerant non-judgmental compassionate attitude.[/quote] Good, glad you're taking a step in the right direction. [quote]Like those Evil conservatives who post things you disagree with on teh interwebz. If they had only done something forgivable, like murder or rape. But alas . . . .[/quote] No, these people should be loved too. But I have not once seen you make a post about love or kindness that wasn't dripping with sarcasm. I figure why even go down that road with you when it would just become a subject of mockery. Not every conservative (I consider myself one by the way but probably not according to your definitive scale) is as disagreeable and sardonic as you are. Therefore not every attack on you is a war against conservatives. [quote]A merry Christmas to you too![/quote] Well I'm just a bleeding-heart liberal so HAPPY HOLIDAYS. Edited December 12, 2011 by Ice_nine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 unfortunately i don't have the patience to read each and every post after my last post but i read a few but i need to state st pauls writings of "man reveals the word of god imperfectly", except i assume the 10 commandments and the holy gospels of christ beacuse both where written by god himself, and as far as i'm aware in leviticus for example my bible says "deserves death",not that we are to apply death. And god sent the asps to bite the straying israelites and those whom touched the golden snake statue(ie not to be worshipped) that where of good heart where healed,those of a bad heart died. Be careful the asps have not returned are you dead or alive ? Unsure of the council of trents statement, was it the pope speaking on matters of faith and morals,and again i pose the question did they have sufficiant gaols to lock such criminals up? Which leads me to restate some things POSSIBLY are allowed for a time by god till we reach a sufficiant enlightment with grace for an alternative. Society as far as i'm aware couldn't afford to house crimminals so had to shoot,hang,crucify etc etc, particularily repeat offenders. God bless you all Onward christian souls. God is good,god is love,god saves. P.s. there should be a warning at the start of everyone of my posts. "warning this guy is a try hard trying harder,and all content must be treated as possible assumptions not exact truth or facts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 You know what. I'm sorry for my posts in this thread Soc. I've been on edge lately and probably shouldn't unload my stress onto internet folk. I'll save all my fury for the people I meet in person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323638248' post='2349267'] My beef is with the "progressive" idea that society and the Church are just constantly getting better and better all the time, and that whatever is latest in time necessarily is wiser and and more moral then what preceded it, and that two centuries of Church teaching can be lightly disregarded merely for being old. [/quote] I bet the Jewish leaders felt the same way when Jesus came along and healed on the Sabbath... I think Pope Benedict is keeping in mind the Council of Trent, and seeing if we can put into place the heart of that rule rather than simply abide by the letter of the rule.... And no one is addressing the excellent points Vee made... what of those civil authorities who put "criminals" like Bl. Pro and St. Teresa Benedicta to death by a corrupt and evil system? I'm sure the Council of Trent wasn't covering those civil authorities when they said God gives the right to nations to kill their criminals. It gets boring to read over and over, "Well the Church and God gave that right to authorities, end of discussion, the rest of you are modernist/progressives/heathens for not listening to what the Church says...." well, I don't think some of you have a balanced interpretation of these rules. They were made with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Let us try interpreting them in His Light rather than our own bull-headed and strict interpretation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
organwerke Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323693148' post='2349711'] I bet the Jewish leaders felt the same way when Jesus came along and healed on the Sabbath... I think Pope Benedict is keeping in mind the Council of Trent, and seeing if we can put into place the heart of that rule rather than simply abide by the letter of the rule.... And no one is addressing the excellent points Vee made... what of those civil authorities who put "criminals" like Bl. Pro and St. Teresa Benedicta to death by a corrupt and evil system? I'm sure the Council of Trent wasn't covering those civil authorities when they said God gives the right to nations to kill their criminals. [/quote] Honestly speaking, I don't think anyone here thinks that civil authorities were right when executed Bl Pro and others: we are speaking of a cruel dictatorship that has been clearly blamed by the Catholic Church. The council of Trent as other medieval authors such as st. Thomas Aquinas spoke about "how it should be a right and just state". In their vision of course the State could execute only according to a principle of justice. They say that God gave to nations the right to kill their criminals, but the nations have the duty to administrate this right with justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1323697097' post='2349730'] Honestly speaking, I don't think anyone here thinks that civil authorities were right when executed Bl Pro and others: we are speaking of a cruel dictatorship that has been clearly blamed by the Catholic Church. The council of Trent as other medieval authors such as st. Thomas Aquinas spoke about "how it should be a right and just state". In their vision of course the State could execute only according to a principle of justice. They say that God gave to nations the right to kill their criminals, but the nations have the duty to administrate this right with justice. [/quote] This is a good reason to re-evaluate the death penalty as it is applied today. I have a problem with it because of the innocent men who have died, not because I'm some progressive modernist who ignores Church teachings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1323674122' post='2349681'] You know what. I'm sorry for my posts in this thread Soc. I've been on edge lately and probably shouldn't unload my stress onto internet folk. I'll save all my fury for the people I meet in person [/quote] Save that fury for the people you meet in prison. And I pray you get rehabilitated. j/k - Merry Christmas, Season's Greetings, Happy Holidays, Happy Hanukah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Winter Solstice and Happy Festivus!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Kwanzaa has two terminal 'a's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323717208' post='2349846'] Kwanzaa has two terminal 'a's. [/quote] My apologies. I meant to disrespect. I am not a racist...honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 If my people were African I would be [i]SO[/i] offended right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1323721969' post='2349882'] If my people were African I would be [i]SO[/i] offended right now. [/quote] I'll be offended for you My people aren't African though. Edited December 12, 2011 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1323724074' post='2349900'] I'll be offended for you [/quote] [img]http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/006/971/Sohardcore.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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