Pope Seeks End To Death Penalty

[BigJon16]

Well, I've been trollin' this for a bit and the only thing that was worth seeing was this:


[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1323568470' post='2348823']
there went 3 minutes i'll never get back.....
[/quote]

It made me X1000


I think the rest of the debate is kinda sorta pointless. (Hate to break it too you... hahaha)


Can we all agree that all Life is sacred? Is that not a fundamental teaching of the Christianity, especially Catholicism?


So, the Pope said that he doesn't like the death penalty. And? Its not like anyone would ever listen to him... (relatively speaking, of course. )


He has a valid point, but as shown by both sides of the argument, there is more to it.

The question of whether or not we should have the death penalty, or whether or not it works is basically invalid, unless we first ask ourselves about why we desire it or not.

If we think it is needed because there seems to be no other possible way to keep extremely bad people off of the streets, well I think that is the only valid defense.

If we dislike it because we feel that "all life is sacred", well I also think that that is a valid point as well.

But, here's the thing: both of those arguments revolve around the "all life is sacred" ideology. We want bad criminals off the street, because we don't think anyone deserves to be harmed by them. But we don't want said criminals dead, because we think that they don't deserve that, no matter what.

Its a touchy subject, yes, but I think their is a compromise: Christ.

Look at Christ. He was sacrificed for the good of all humanity. If one criminal is all that must be lost for the safety and protection of all people, than why not? But we must be sure to try and minister to them as much as we possibly can. We must try our hardest to try and show them the love of Christ, and let them me sanctified by His grace.

I am absolutely confidant that if we try our hardest to help them achieve this "conversion", than we will not fail. God would not let us.

I think that this is something the Holy Father understands.


But this is just a thought or an idea and I am open to changing it. I'm sure that all you cynics out there will tear it to pieces in a matter of minutes.

Edited December 11, 2011 by BigJon16

[dominicansoul]

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/The_Innocent_and_the_Death_Penalty.php


[size=3][indent=4.375]

[size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/54.php"]Kirk Bloodsworth[/url] served eight years in Maryland prison – including [b]two years on death row[/b] – [b]for a murder and rape he didn’t commit[/b], before he was exonerated in 1993.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/77.php"]Rolando Cruz[/url], and his co-defendant [url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/176.php"]Alejandro Hernandez[/url], [b]served more than 10 years on Illinois death row for a murder they didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing proved both men innocent in 1995.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/294.php"]Verneal Jimerson[/url] and [url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/184.php"]Dennis Williams[/url] were [b]sentenced to death[/b] in the infamous Ford Heights Four case in Illinois [b]for a pair of 1978 murders they didn’t commit[/b]. Jimerson was cleared in 1995 after a [b]decade on death row[/b] and Williams [b]served more than 17 years on death row [/b]before he was freed in 1996.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/219.php"]Robert Miller[/url] [b]spent nine[/b] years [b]on Oklahoma’s death row for a murder and rape he didn’t commit[/b] before he was cleared by DNA testing in 1998.
[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/295.php"]
Ron Williamson[/url] [b]spent a decade on Oklahoma’s death row for a murder he didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing secured by the Innocence Project proved him innocent in 1999. His co-defendant, Dennis Fritz, [b]was sentenced to life and spent 11 years in prison [/b]before DNA cleared him as well.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/190.php"]Ronald Jones[/url], an Innocence Project client, [b]served a decade on Illinois death row for a murder and rape he didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing proved his innocence and led to his release in 1999.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/282.php"]Earl Washington[/url], a Virginia man with limited mental capacity, was [b]sentenced to death [/b]after he allegedly confessed to committing [b]a 1982 murder he didn’t commit.[/b] [b]He served a decade on death row, once coming within nine days of execution before receiving a stay. He would serve a total of 17 years behind bars [/b]before DNA testing obtained by the Innocence Project cleared him in 2000.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/265.php"]Frank Lee Smith[/url] [b]died of cancer on Florida’s death row after serving 14 years for a murder and rape he didn’t commit. [/b]He was cleared by DNA testing obtained by the Innocence Project 11 months after his death.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/149.php"]Charles Irvin Fain[/url] [b]served more than 17 years on death row[/b] in Idaho [b]for a murder and rape he didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing proved his innocence in 2001.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/196.php"]Ray Krone[/url] [b]served a decade[/b] in Arizona prison – [b]including four years on death row – for a murder and rape he didn’t commit [/b]before DNA testing proved his innocence in 2002.
[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/302.php"]
Nicholas Yarris[/url] [b]served more than 21 years on[/b] Pennsylvania’s [b]death row[/b] [b]before DNA testing proved his innocence[/b] and led to his release in 2003.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/206.php"]Ryan Matthews[/url] [b]served five years on Louisiana’s death row for a murder he didn’t commit [/b]before he was exonerated by DNA testing in 2004. His co-defendant, Travis Hayes, was sentenced to life in prison and served eight years before he was cleared in 2007.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/576.php"]Curtis McCarty[/url] [b]served 21 years in Oklahoma prison – including nearly 18 years on death row – for a murder he didn’t commit [/b]before DNA tests secured by the Innocence Project led to his exoneration in 2007. He was convicted twice and sentenced to death three times based on forensic misconduct.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/1176.php"]Kennedy Brewer[/url], an Innocence Project client, [b]served 15 years behind bars – including seven years on death row – for a murder and sexual assault he didn’t commit [/b]before DNA testing from 2001 finally led to his exoneration in 2008.

[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/1545.php"]Michael Blair[/url] [b]served 13 years on death row for a murder he didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing obtained by his lawyers at the Innocence Project proved his innocence and led to his exoneration in 2008.[/size]




[/size][/indent]

(emphasis mine)

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323572749' post='2348891']
By that logic, the notoriously corrupt papacy of the Renaissance must be regarded as the "pinnacle" in its day, and every saying of those popes must be seen as having supremacy over the teachings of the early Church fathers.
[/quote]
[quote]The Council of Trent (Latin: Concilium Tridentinum) was the 16th-century Ecumenical Council of the Roman Catholic Church.[/quote]

[quote]The Renaissance was a cultural movement that spanned roughly the 14th to the 17th century[/quote]


Anyway, I can't tell if it's harder or easier to prooftext what the Church says in order to back up one's political views. In some ways, it seems harder, because it's a lot more digging and twisting to do...on the other hand, though, it would be easy not to have to submit to what the Church tells you to.

[arfink]

Something I noticed...

But I don't think the Pope is saying that governments do not have the right to execute criminals. I think he's saying that it's time for the world to realize that we rely too heavily on capital punishment. Of course, I'm using those poisonous, dangerous words again: "I THINK."

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323573035' post='2348895']
Yeah, those who choose to murder, rape, and steal just need a little extra coddling from the state at tax-payer expense, and should know that if they do so, they will treated nicely, and not have too much to worry about.
[/quote]

Did you see the article on Norway's prison system. They have a much lower rate of recidivism. Hmmm

But floopy statistics. Those don't matter right?



People aren't inherently good or inherently evil. To a certain extent we're all products of our environment. If you were born and raised in Nazi Germany YOU might have been hunting down the Jews. There's nothing inherently superior about you, and you squak with a relentless self-righteous attitude all the time and have ZERO compassion for sinners. Well, not all sinners, just the ones that are too difficult to love. Cause Christ said "love your enemies, except for those real miserable bastards. Those are impossible to love.

You really need to stop making a ridiculous caricature of every post you quote btw. It's irritating.

end rant

Edited December 11, 2011 by Ice_nine

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1323585645' post='2349018']

Did you see the article on Norway's prison system. They have a much lower rate of recidivism. Hmmm

But floopy statistics. Those don't matter right?



People aren't inherently good or inherently evil. To a certain extent we're all products of our environment. If you were born and raised in Nazi Germany YOU might have been hunting down the Jews. There's nothing inherently superior about you, and you squak with a relentless self-righteous attitude all the time and have ZERO compassion for sinners. Well, not all sinners, just the ones that are too difficult to love. Cause Christ said "love your enemies, except for those real miserable bastards. Those are impossible to love.

You really need to stop making a ridiculous caricature of every post you quote btw. It's irritating.

end rant
[/quote]
ur avatar is scary.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1323607063' post='2349052']
ur avatar is scary.
[/quote]

are you calling me fat?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323461013' post='2348213']


Well first off, Manson was never charged with murdering anybody. He was charged with conspiring and coordinating the murders. Second, he's been in genpop for a very long time now and is basically a nonfactor at Corcoran. Third, he will never ever ever get paroled.
[/quote]


If anything, that would only convince me of the need to execute him, considering he could order/coordinate murders from prison.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323579218' post='2348961']
[url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/The_Innocent_and_the_Death_Penalty.php"]http://www.innocence...ath_Penalty.php[/url]


[indent=4][size=3]375][/size][/indent]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/54.php"]Kirk Bloodsworth[/url] served eight years in Maryland prison – including [b]two years on death row[/b] – [b]for a murder and rape he didn’t commit[/b], before he was exonerated in 1993.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/77.php"]Rolando Cruz[/url], and his co-defendant [url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/176.php"]Alejandro Hernandez[/url], [b]served more than 10 years on Illinois death row for a murder they didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing proved both men innocent in 1995.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/294.php"]Verneal Jimerson[/url] and [url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/184.php"]Dennis Williams[/url] were [b]sentenced to death[/b] in the infamous Ford Heights Four case in Illinois [b]for a pair of 1978 murders they didn’t commit[/b]. Jimerson was cleared in 1995 after a [b]decade on death row[/b] and Williams [b]served more than 17 years on death row [/b]before he was freed in 1996.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/219.php"]Robert Miller[/url] [b]spent nine[/b] years [b]on Oklahoma’s death row for a murder and rape he didn’t commit[/b] before he was cleared by DNA testing in 1998.[/size][/size]
[size=3][size=5][/size][/size]
[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/295.php"]Ron Williamson[/url] [b]spent a decade on Oklahoma’s death row for a murder he didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing secured by the Innocence Project proved him innocent in 1999. His co-defendant, Dennis Fritz, [b]was sentenced to life and spent 11 years in prison [/b]before DNA cleared him as well.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/190.php"]Ronald Jones[/url], an Innocence Project client, [b]served a decade on Illinois death row for a murder and rape he didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing proved his innocence and led to his release in 1999.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/282.php"]Earl Washington[/url], a Virginia man with limited mental capacity, was [b]sentenced to death [/b]after he allegedly confessed to committing [b]a 1982 murder he didn’t commit.[/b] [b]He served a decade on death row, once coming within nine days of execution before receiving a stay. He would serve a total of 17 years behind bars [/b]before DNA testing obtained by the Innocence Project cleared him in 2000.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/265.php"]Frank Lee Smith[/url] [b]died of cancer on Florida’s death row after serving 14 years for a murder and rape he didn’t commit. [/b]He was cleared by DNA testing obtained by the Innocence Project 11 months after his death.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/149.php"]Charles Irvin Fain[/url] [b]served more than 17 years on death row[/b] in Idaho [b]for a murder and rape he didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing proved his innocence in 2001.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/196.php"]Ray Krone[/url] [b]served a decade[/b] in Arizona prison – [b]including four years on death row – for a murder and rape he didn’t commit [/b]before DNA testing proved his innocence in 2002.[/size][/size]
[size=3][size=5][/size][/size]
[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/302.php"]Nicholas Yarris[/url] [b]served more than 21 years on[/b] Pennsylvania’s [b]death row[/b] [b]before DNA testing proved his innocence[/b] and led to his release in 2003.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/206.php"]Ryan Matthews[/url] [b]served five years on Louisiana’s death row for a murder he didn’t commit [/b]before he was exonerated by DNA testing in 2004. His co-defendant, Travis Hayes, was sentenced to life in prison and served eight years before he was cleared in 2007. [/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/576.php"]Curtis McCarty[/url] [b]served 21 years in Oklahoma prison – including nearly 18 years on death row – for a murder he didn’t commit [/b]before DNA tests secured by the Innocence Project led to his exoneration in 2007. He was convicted twice and sentenced to death three times based on forensic misconduct.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/1176.php"]Kennedy Brewer[/url], an Innocence Project client, [b]served 15 years behind bars – including seven years on death row – for a murder and sexual assault he didn’t commit [/b]before DNA testing from 2001 finally led to his exoneration in 2008.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=5][url="http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/1545.php"]Michael Blair[/url] [b]served 13 years on death row for a murder he didn’t commit[/b] before DNA testing obtained by his lawyers at the Innocence Project proved his innocence and led to his exoneration in 2008.[/size][/size]







(emphasis mine)
[/quote]


As I stated previously, this is much more of a convincing argument to end (or at least put a moratorium) on the death penalty than the whole "criminals' lives are just as precious as innocent people's (if not more)" talk.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1323626425' post='2349141']

are you calling me fat?
[/quote]
i think that's MiKolbe's line.

[Socrates]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1323580718' post='2348978']


Anyway, I can't tell if it's harder or easier to prooftext what the Church says in order to back up one's political views. In some ways, it seems harder, because it's a lot more digging and twisting to do...on the other hand, though, it would be easy not to have to submit to what the Church tells you to.
[/quote]
As a clarification, the corrupt Renaissance popes I were referring to were those of the 15th century (pre-"Reformation," and pre-Trent), and I was simply referring to this time because it was a time notorious for corruption and decadence in the Church.

My beef is with the "progressive" idea that society and the Church are just constantly getting better and better all the time, and that whatever is latest in time necessarily is wiser and and more moral then what preceded it, and that two centuries of Church teaching can be lightly disregarded merely for being old.

And no, I have not refused to submit to anything the Church told me I must. Show where I denied Catholic dogma (and, no, the currents Pope's opinion on the death penalty is not dogma), or retract your accusation. Thank you.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1323573461' post='2348901']
you coulda used all that wind for something useful....

No one here has stated, or come close to stating that what has been the traditional teaching of the Church (in regards to the DP) is wrong, or untrue, or even that they do not adhere to is.

The problem I have, is *some* people take the teaching that Church permits the DP and morph (or attempt to) it into the Church mandates and demands the DP.[/quote]
I never claimed that. Simply that the Church teaches the state does in fact have a right to use the death penalty.

[quote]Of all the quoting you did (thank you for quotes 2 of my 3 funnies), you neglected the quasi-serious post I had..which is odd as they should stand out like sore thumbs....[/quote]
I guess I didn't find your "funnies" that funny, and found the mocking and contemptuous attitude by some on here towards those who disagree with them uncalled for.



[quote]Do you see the Pope as a heretical or a denier of dogma for wanting to minimize the DP? Is he profoundly ignorant of traditional Church teaching, too?[/quote]
No I don't. I don't necessarily agree with him that there is no place for capital punishment in these times, but he himself has stated (as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) that there is in fact a "legitimate diversity of opinion" on this topic.

Those who deny that there is a legitimate diversity of opinion on this matter disagree with the Pope, and are thus hypocritical in their denunciations of those who believe in capital punishment as unfaithful.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Socrates

[MissyP89]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1323568470' post='2348823']
there went 3 minutes i'll never get back.....
[/quote]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1323570367' post='2348852']

God has the time,the question iz do you ?
[/quote]

MIKolbe, I think you just got Jesus juked. I'm not sure, though.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1323585645' post='2349018']

Did you see the article on Norway's prison system. They have a much lower rate of recidivism. Hmmm

But floopy statistics. Those don't matter right?[/quote]
Justice cannot be measured by statistical figures.

Someone's life is taken away forever, and from those of his/her loved ones, or one's innocence is lost and horribly scarred forever, never to be taken back,all because of one's choice to murder or rape.
While the murder or rapist gets nothing more than a few years at a luxury summer camp (with rooms nicer than any I lived in) complete with ski and horseback trips, all at the expense of law-abiding tax-payers.

A blatant slap on the face of justice.

Singapore also has very low crime rates, yet has a justice systems most Americans find very harsh, if all we're interested in is "results."


[quote]People aren't inherently good or inherently evil. To a certain extent we're all products of our environment.[/quote]
Yeah, yeah. We're all just products of our environment and not moral agents responsible for our own actions.

[quote] If you were born and raised in Nazi Germany YOU might have been hunting down the Jews.[/quote]
And if I did, I should be punished accordingly. Treating me as a mindless animal not responsible for my own evil actions is in fact more degrading and insulting than awarding me justice for crimes. (I believe G.K. Chesterton said something relevant along those lines.)

But I suppose those responsible for the Holocaust of the Jews merely needed more hugz.

[quote] There's nothing inherently superior about you, and you squak with a relentless self-righteous attitude all the time and have ZERO compassion for sinners. Well, not all sinners, just the ones that are too difficult to love.[/quote]
I pray one day I can be half as holy as you, and have your morally superior tolerant non-judgmental compassionate attitude.


[quote]Cause Christ said "love your enemies, except for those real miserable bastards. Those are impossible to love.[/quote]
Like those Evil conservatives who post things you disagree with on teh interwebz.

If they had only done something forgivable, like murder or rape. But alas . . . .

[quote]You really need to stop making a ridiculous caricature of every post you quote btw. It's irritating.


end rant[/quote]
A merry Christmas to you too!

Edited December 11, 2011 by Socrates

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323638248' post='2349267']
And no, I have not refused to submit to anything the Church told me I must. Show where I denied Catholic dogma (and, no, the currents Pope's opinion on the death penalty is not dogma), or retract your accusation. Thank you.
[/quote]

[b]CCC Paragraph [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm"]2267[/url][/b]

Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."[sup]68[/sup]


Of course, the CCC [i]was [/i]promulgated by that new agey idiot JPII, so it isn't really good for anything anyway. And it's really only his opinion.

And from your earlier post:
[quote]dogma does not change over time.[/quote]
Did anybody anywhere argue that dogma changes?

But yeah, the Church smells of elderberries nowadays and was way better when we stoned prostitutes and homos and stuff.

Edited December 11, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS