Pope Seeks End To Death Penalty

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1323500218' post='2348483']


I will never argue that correctional officers aren't safe Jack. I've been through too many max's and super max's to ever believe that. And you and I are on the same page about comparing them to soldiers or police officers. The Church of course believes that every life is sacred. But I think what she teaches when it comes to capital punishment is based on double effect. When it is an act of self defense (of society) to put a person to death because there is no other recourse, then it is moral and justified. But we have other recourses today. And the reason that the Vatican is trying to end the death penalty around the globe is because other countries are building prisons to the same standards as American and European countries.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean in your 1st sentence. Are you saying they are or are not safe? Granted, a supermax puts a lot of restrictions on a prisoner, but all it takes is just one contact a day. These guys can spend all their time working out, too, as opposed to the guards who have families and other responsibilities in society. They get pretty big, as I'm sure you're aware. When something does come up (which I know for a fact happens in supermax prisons), it takes several guards just to subdue one of these prisoners.

That doesn't really contribute to the conversation, but is an interesting fact.

Here's another argument-maybe our prisons are enough (I believe supermax prison walls are feet of concrete thick). But by our 'humane' societal standards, each prisoner is allowed an hour of solitary time 'outside' (where they are again enclosed by concrete walls). Still, they have to get there somehow. And even if they only see 1 guard a day, that's still enough to harm someone.

Still, with all that said, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1323539088' post='2348609']
[img]http://www.stteresamargaret.org/images/teresa_benedetta_della_croce.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

but Vee, God gave the German civil authorities (Nazis at the time,) the right to murder criminals.....

[vee]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323539781' post='2348613']

but Vee, God gave the German civil authorities (Nazis at the time,) the right to murder criminals.....
[/quote]

ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh sorry

[GeorgiiMichael]

Vee, don't forget this one:

[img]http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/archive/2009/04/1_123125_2088260_2209982_2214799_090409_fb_jesustn.jpg[/img]

[FutureSister2009]

Ironically I just did a paper on capital punishment for my ethics class. I wish I had known about this sooner

[Ice_nine]

I think the more dangerous thing is treating criminals worse than dogs and throwing them back on the street. Or even if they're in there for life.

This is not an argument about systematic police brutality and/or corruption either. Just look at any scared straight program that teaches kids "don't break the law, because if you do you will end up here and we will treat you like absolute poo."

Just my 2 cents

[mysisterisalittlesister]

good for him.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1323282816' post='2346613']
[size=4][b]Catechism of the Council of Trent[/b][/size]

The power of life and death is permitted to certain civil magistrates because theirs is the responsibility under law to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. Far from being guilty of breaking this commandment [Thy shall not kill], such an execution of justice is precisely an act of obedience to it. For the purpose of the law is to protect and foster human life. This purpose is fulfilled when the legitimate authority of the State is exercised by taking the guilty lives of those who have taken innocent lives.

In the Psalms we find a vindication of this right: “Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land, cutting off all evildoers from the city of the Lord” (Ps. 101:8).

[right][size=2][size=3]([i]Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent[/i], 1566, Part III, 5, n. 4[/size])[/size][/right]


[/quote]


Pax domine bretheren, yes the wicked will be cut off from the city, possibly will get life in prison yes/no/maybe? this is possibly a prophecy about the establishment of gaols, unsure whether they had prisons when the council of trent was conveened are you? Life in prison costs the community much money but also i refer to caine and able and how cain was given a mark on both arms that all could see and all where told if anyone murdered him they would be avenged 700 times 7 times,unsure of the exact location of the passage,read genesis and you will see it. I assume god marked caine with these marks because he desired to give him the full extent of his life to repent from this hanus crime,in other words that the lord may redeem him. Blow me up u.s.a or persia/arabia or asia or any other area that has the death penalty and enjoy hell without us.Sorry that is a bit harsh i know your not all blood thirsty in these regions, and hope those whom aren't, if it gets worse, your most welcome in europe and the commonwealth. Yeah i know the commonwealth used to have the death penalty too but there over it now.Unsure about europe but when i say commonwealth i'm talking of australia unsure where the other commonwealth states stand. Read the holy bible and think about it and pray about it,if i am right in my assumptions about that prophecy and kaine let go of the death penalty and repent. And if i'm wrong somone please prove me wrong on this matter, I do know i've been wrong many times before in my life some big things and some little things and you may all think me a hypocritical wolf in sheeps clothing because i have a drinking and drug problem but i admit it and am seeking the proper avenues for assistance, but i do feel strongly about this and the passage from the o.t. this man has shown confirms to me my belief about caine and abel. We are all wrong, at least sometimes.

God bless you all.
Onward christian souls.
JC "seek and you will find." "knock and the door will be opened."
St Paul "persistance bears fruits of hope."
N.T. somewhere "anyone whom says he hasn't sinned is a lier."

P.s. Some things are allowed only for a certain time period untill with the grace of god humans figure out a better option. eg. embryonic stem cell research and i.b.f. , originally they where the only valid option but now we have naprotechnologies and adult stem cell research that has greater success than the previous attempts.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[MIKolbe]

there went 3 minutes i'll never get back.....

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1323568470' post='2348823']
there went 3 minutes i'll never get back.....
[/quote]

God has the time,the question iz do you ?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

oh by the way i was thinking war may be that 700 times 7 consequence ? How about you ?

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='mysisterisalittlesister' timestamp='1323565226' post='2348785']
good for him.
[/quote]

Ha Ha the pope looks like a barn owl in that picture, barn owls eat rats,snakes and mice and possibly spiders too,i have seen them strutting on the ground scanning the ground like a chook somewhere if my memory serves me correctly. Ye all be warned am talking about mysistersalittlesisters avatar of a pretend pope,but am talking of the spirit of the real pope

Edited December 11, 2011 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Socrates]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1323169632' post='2345416']
Doesn't the Pope know that the power to execute criminals has been given to the state by God?
[/quote]
[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1323295150' post='2346820']
SO LET'S KILL 'EM!!!!!!!
[/quote]
The idea that the state does in fact have the right to execute violent criminals has in fact been the consistent teaching of the ordinary magisterium of the Church for most of the two thousand years of Her existence on earth, and has been formally declared in the Catechism of Trent, and that was my purpose in posting from that Catechism. I could also provide quotes from a number of other Popes and Doctors of the Church to back this up (as I have indeed done in other threads in the past), but it all seems to be pearls before swine on here.

Thus, blithely mocking the idea that there is a legitimate use for capital punishment, or acting as if the idea is somehow heretical, is completely uncalled for, and betrays a profound ignorance of traditional Church teaching on the matter.

And my purpose is in no way to belittle the current Holy Father or his thoughts, but the truth is that - right or wrong - his opinions on this particular matter are certainly [i]not [/i]dogma (contrary to popular belief, every statement made by any given Pope is not dogma, and dogma does not change over time. The dogma on this matter remains the same as it did when defined at Trent. The current Pope's idea that the death penalty is not needed in the particular circumstances of modern times is a prudential judgment, and does not meet the requirements of Catholic dogma. It can certainly be argued on its own merits, but it is simply wrong to dismiss everyone who disagrees as either idiots or heretics.

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323310448' post='2347061']
The Holy Spirit must have stopped inspiring the Church after the Council of Trent...



[/quote]
Yeah, and it's a darn shame the Holy Spirit apparently was so ignorant and foolishly wrongheaded on this matter for all those centuries preceding the reign of John Paul II.

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323388182' post='2347575']
Are we Catholics supposed to believe that the Church reached its pinnacle at the Council of Trent?
[/quote]
Catholics are certainly not under any requirement to believe in a "progressive" or "evolutionary" view of the Church that it's dogma is continuously changing and improving with the times, and that the views of the latest Pope always necessarily trump all the teaching of the Church that came before him, and that all the past teaching of the Church can be simply consigned to the dustbin of history.

By that logic, the notoriously corrupt papacy of the Renaissance must be regarded as the "pinnacle" in its day, and every saying of those popes must be seen as having supremacy over the teachings of the early Church fathers.

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1323313146' post='2347111']

I'm so glad that neither the Church nor society have developed or grown at all since the Council of Trent.
[/quote]
Yep, the Church and society have grown morally and intellectually far beyond the Dark Ages that gave us Trent, when men were little more than apes. Society's progressed so much over the past centuries, with Communism, two bloody world wars, the Holocaust, abortion-on-demand, internet porn, gay marriage, and Jersey Shore on the telly. And the Church is much holier too, with clown masses, pederasty scandals, and Nancy Pelosi.

It's great that we just keep getting better and more enlightened everyday, so we can disregard all the dusty old doctrines of the past.

And, as a historical note, brick (or stone) buildings with steel doors had been around for many centuries prior to Trent.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1323554704' post='2348704']
I think the more dangerous thing is treating criminals worse than dogs and throwing them back on the street. Or even if they're in there for life.

This is not an argument about systematic police brutality and/or corruption either. Just look at any scared straight program that teaches kids "don't break the law, because if you do you will end up here and we will treat you like absolute poo."

Just my 2 cents
[/quote]
Yeah, those who choose to murder, rape, and steal just need a little extra coddling from the state at tax-payer expense, and should know that if they do so, they will treated nicely, and not have too much to worry about.

[MIKolbe]

you coulda used all that wind for something useful....

No one here has stated, or come close to stating that what has been the traditional teaching of the Church (in regards to the DP) is wrong, or untrue, or even that they do not adhere to is.

The problem I have, is *some* people take the teaching that Church permits the DP and morph (or attempt to) it into the Church mandates and demands the DP.

Of all the quoting you did (thank you for quotes 2 of my 3 funnies), you neglected the quasi-serious post I had..which is odd as they should stand out like sore thumbs....

[quote]


Can the Pope dogmatically 'accept' the parts of Trent that have been traipsed around as it refers to the death penalty, while pastorally working for its end? Or is that hypocritical? Can he believe the DP can be implemented, yet work for its very dismantling? [/quote]

Do you see the Pope as a heretical or a denier of dogma for wanting to minimize the DP? Is he profoundly ignorant of traditional Church teaching, too?